Iraq: Meltdown - Page 12 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #111 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-02-2005, 05:40 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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kvining - 6/2/2005 1:38 PM

We all "support the troops" in our own way.
If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter...

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post #112 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-02-2005, 09:17 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

The real bottom line is the people of the United States elected Jr. It wasn't even close. I didn't vote for him, but he was put in power by a majority decision. He made the decisions on Iraq (I have heard that before he took office in the beginning he already had people working on invasion plans for Iraq). So it's really a moot point at this time. I think that we are getting pretty close here. The electin got the people of Iraq pretty pumped up. The election in December will be the reall key. IF the Sunni clerics continue, as they have been saying recently, to encourage their people to participate, then all these AIFs will just go back to Saudi, Egypt, etc. The AIFs took a whipping in January when they weren't able to disrupt the election, and day by day more people here are standing up and turning them in. All these people want is the same thing you and I want, a good job that supports there family, a place to live and a decent life for themselves and their children.
AS far as the smartass remark about WMDs, there has only been one chemical weapons shell found. It was used as a IED and most "experts" doubt the idiots even knew it was a chemical weapon. They were here, where they are now is anyones guess.
And lastly, I realize that supporting the troops can be done in many ways, even demanding that they be brought home. There is no doubt in my mind that this place is not worth the price the families of the dead soldiers have paid. Obviously, it's not as clear cut as WW2, but I don't recall anyone bombing any buildings at home lately, and part of the strategy here is "we got 'em cornered here and let's deal with them here". But soldiers do what they are told. You want to change the policy, change the government. That buffoon John Kerry didn't seem to impress many people did he?? And Ralph Nader got what, three votes total?
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post #113 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-02-2005, 09:59 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Well said mark
Let the electorate reap what they sow and sort it out next time around. Whining is no way to win any war whatever form it may take.
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post #114 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-02-2005, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

"Whining", otherwise known as "dissent", is what makes this democracy work. The real question is why you would want there to be no dissent. Is society suppposed to just shut up and follow Der Furhuer? If you need a clue as to why I do it, here it is: George W. Bush is a war criminal. The debate over him and his actions transcends the usual boundaries of political discourse. This needs to be shouted from the rooftops, so another murdering bastard like him never ends up in office in this country, ever again.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #115 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-02-2005, 11:50 PM
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Whining is whining.


What are "the usual boundaries of political discourse."?
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post #116 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-03-2005, 12:28 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

We can only hope that the current trend of calling opposition view points "un-American" stops. But it is debate not dissent that is what keeps our democracy alive. When people debate an issue they are a fully involved part of the system.
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post #117 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-03-2005, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Dissent is, oh let me think of an example - throwing tea in Boston Harbor comes to mind. Or standing up in a Senate hearing, and asking Senator McCarthy if he has a shred of decency in him, or carrying a sign on a public street, expressing your opinion on any subject. Then again, it is interesting to note that the minority of Supreme Court justices who lose a case, get to write a "dissenting opinion". Then again, we have people for whom no debate was possible, like black people in the Jim Crow South, who dissented by letting thugs beat them with iron pipes while they sat a lunch counter. Perhaps they all should have "debated" instead.

Let me clue you in on what my great uncle, who took a bullet on Iwo Jima, had to say: American soldiers don't die for political parties, they don't die for some side in a debate, they don't die for some other person's opinion on how they are supposed to act in a democracy, they die for The Bill of Rights, the one thing that separates us from every other nation on this earth. Now go read the First Amendment, the first article in the Bill of Rights, the numero uno to the Founders. It doesn't say "freedom of speech" with words like "maybe" or "under certain circumstances" or "except at times of war", does it?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #118 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-03-2005, 01:28 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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kvining - 6/3/2005 2:48 AM

Dissent is, oh let me think of an example - throwing tea in Boston Harbor comes to mind. Or standing up in a Senate hearing, and asking Senator McCarthy if he has a shred of decency in him, or carrying a sign on a public street, expressing your opinion on any subject. Then again, it is interesting to note that the minority of Supreme Court justices who lose a case, get to write a "dissenting opinion". Then again, we have people for whom no debate was possible, like black people in the Jim Crow South, who dissented by letting thugs beat them with iron pipes while they sat a lunch counter. Perhaps they all should have "debated" instead.
Sounds like 'the usual boundaries of political discourse' are pretty varied. So there is nothing new here. If you can convince big industry that they don't need GW's pet oil war then maybe they will issue some orders to their monkeys and get him out of there. Until then screaming from the rooftops will probably end up getting you commited to a place in addition to a cause.

Quote:
kvining - 6/3/2005 2:48 AM
Let me clue you in on what my great uncle, who took a bullet on Iwo Jima, had to say: American soldiers don't die for political parties, they don't die for some side in a debate, they don't die for some other person's opinion on how they are supposed to act in a democracy, they die for The Bill of Rights, the one thing that separates us from every other nation on this earth. Now go read the First Amendment, the first article in the Bill of Rights, the numero uno to the Founders. It doesn't say "freedom of speech" with words like "maybe" or "under certain circumstances" or "except at times of war", does it?
Your uncle was lucky. Most American soldiers didn't go out like that. They went out in jungles trying to keep the commies from getting a good port to operate out of in SE Asia, fighting their cousins, or trying to secure gaming rights in cuba... wasted.
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post #119 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-03-2005, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Oh, he didn't go out - he spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #120 of 152 (permalink) Old 06-03-2005, 03:22 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

I respect your Uncle's opinion, but I'll let you in a little secret. No soldier dies for his country, they die for the guy next to them. I seriously doubt that when a Marine jumps on a grenade the Bill of Rights is somewhere in his mind, his fellow Marines are though....And when the 101st Airbourne was surrounded at Bastogne, the guys in the 506th weren't thinking that if we let them through, the Bill of Rights will perish. Or in the Ia Drang Valley the fellows in the 1st Battalion/7th Cavalry weren't trying to save the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, or any other piece of paper when they rescued part of Bravo Company that had been cutoff and surrounded for over 24 hours. And certainly SFC Paul Smith wasn't protecting you, me or even his family when his 10 or 15 troopers were cut off and surrounded out by the airport here in Baghdad and he sat in a disabled APC shooting the .50 cal at some 100 odd Rebublican Guard elite troops

No folks, these guys died for their fellow soldiers, because they know if they let each other down they all go down.
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