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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Victory Over Japan special on PBS

Watched this last night, definitly one of the most well done shows I've seen on this subject - the schedule on these shows vary so you may still be able to catch it in your area. The main thing I got out of it was that the US had no choice but to use the atom bomb on Japan. Starting in 1944, the Japanese initiated plans to build an entire armed forces structure built around suicide. The kamakazees were just the tip of the iceberg. They were in the process of changing their airplanes over to what were essentially flying human smart bombs, they were also building a fleet of suicide mini subs to meet our numerical superiority in ships, and were in the process of indoctrinating their entire teenage population to strap 10 pounds of TNT to their backs and roll under tanks. Their war department estimated that they had a ready supply of five million willing suicide troops. Absolutely mind boggling.

Of the new things I learned, I was amazed at the extent of the conventional air war that preceeded the atom bomb. I was not aware that the massive fire bombing of Tokyo, which killed an estimated 100,000 Japanese and essentially ended their production of war material, was the first use of napalm in warfare. I was also unaware that, while I have heard of the Tokyo bombing, that these same type of attacks were carried out on all the large cities of Japan and that in total an estimated 500,000 Japanese civilians died in the 10 days of sustained firebomb attacks by thousands of B-29 bombers, and the only reason it stopped was because Curtis Lemay flat ran out of bombs. In many ways these bombings strengthened the hand of the suicide faction within the Japanese high command, coming to an end only when it became apparent that the atom bomb would result in the complete destruction of Japan itself.

Amazingly, a lot of the information came from documents that even now have become recently declassified. MacArthur's war plan for atomic war on Japan is chilling for someone in our day and age to hear about, since they were then so ignorant of the after affects of atomic bombing. MacArthur planned to use seven atomic bombs on the Japanese mainland invasion point, followed by an invasion of 775,000 American troops - an invasion that would have made D-Day look like a small picnic.

Given the experience of the Okinawa invasion, the projections were for 20% fatal casualities, or over 150,000 American dead in a few weeks of fighting. It would have been even higher than that given the effects of radiation, which they had not even forseen in their battle plans. In addition, MacArthur had serious doubts the invasion would even succeed, or that the American public was ready to accept a war that might go on for years with millions of American casualities. In the end, Truman had no choice but to nuke them. A fascinating show, I highly recommend it to anyone who wishes to understand why The Bomb was used.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 03:50 PM
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

Ain't war wonderful.[xx(]

And now Japan is poised to own the US economically, I wonder if they will use that advantage to exact revenge....

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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 04:52 PM
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

The absolutely most devastating events to all humanity were committed by the U.S.! The mass, mass execution of men, women, and children civilians, when atomic bombs were dropped on Japanese cities. Literally, wholesale murder of non-combatants. So you're calling that collateral damage? Also the thousands of mostly civilian people that died insidious deaths from radiation burns and poisoning for years afterward? More collateral damage? Those that made those decisions, will burn in the hottest part of HELL forever. I can't even imagine that we did such things and am throughly ashamed of that part of our history. In the wake of the horrendous attack, the United States government wrongly imprisoned its own citizens purely on the cries of "national security" and hatred of all things Japanese. Homes, business, personal property and lives were taken away from citizens who were Japanese in ancestry and thousands of Americans were imprisoned in internment camps. More collateral damage by our hands.

Despite this, Japanese Americans voluntarily formed the 100th Battalion, the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and served in the intelligence units in the Pacific. Imagine, they were serving their country while their parents, wives, and siblings were locked up in internment camps in the deserts of the western states.
So, going to any lengths to win justifies mass murder of innocent men, women,and children? Come now, I know you don't really believe that, any more than the men, women and children killed on 9/11 was moral or necessary on their part. Funny how perspective changes some peoples morals and how history is remembered by whom. Unleashing "HELL ON EARTH" was immoral and nothing justified it. Nothing! Let us just hope that our enemies don't "deem it necessary" to unleash nukes as a part of their stratagy to win a war at all costs, as we "deemed it necessary". Both parties in any war think they are right. It's just the one with the biggest bombs wins, and writes history that the other was the "threat" and morals didn't count. Might always makes right. Right?[:(!]

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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

WWIII will be over economics and not military might. The Vulcans in Washington are focusing too much attention to our military and not enough to our economy. So right now we can say we are without a doubt the mightiest military nation on earth! Hooray! The Hollywood action films of fantasy have made a reality right here, right now!
Meanwhile the middle class shrinks through manipulation and the young ones are just as stupid and will suffer the same fate as the adults due to our pathetic public school system. The liberals rant this, while the conservatives claim no one knows exactly what is the correct way to think, so why not just go with what we have now? It is the will of the people now, and not some snotty know it all liberal.
Snore... Same old tired argument from the insecure conservative right... Maybe being born again does this to you??? Status quo is always the easiest way out...
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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 06:15 PM
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

WWIII was won while your were sucking mamma's titty. The western alliance defeated the USSR.

We are now engaged in WWIV.

The definition and concept of war change with strategy and technology. Giant mechanized world wars are passe'. Now manipulating us through information management, intimidation of allies or friendly powers, and terrorism are the tools used by our enemies. The DoD is adjusting, huge reluctant beast that it is, to the new weapons, tactics and strategy.

Just thought you'd like to know.
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 10:18 PM
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

KV,

I missed the show. How many Japanese died in Hiroshima and Nakasaki? Millions? How long did the Japanese continue to die from radiation exposure afterwards? Were these things detailed? I believe people live in the area now - are they experiencing high exposure rates and suffering from radiation related afflictions? Jim
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

Quote:
Botnst - 5/3/2005 7:15 PM

WWIII was won while your were sucking mamma's titty. The western alliance defeated the USSR.

We are now engaged in WWIV.

The definition and concept of war change with strategy and technology. Giant mechanized world wars are passe'. Now manipulating us through information management, intimidation of allies or friendly powers, and terrorism are the tools used by our enemies. The DoD is adjusting, huge reluctant beast that it is, to the new weapons, tactics and strategy.

Just thought you'd like to know.
Golly gee and shucks alive! You sure are one of them sharp snappers!

Actually most do not consider the cold war the equaivalent of a world war. That is why it is called the "cold war." The current "war" should not be called a war at all. It should be called a "battle" to stop terrorism. But since when does the complete occupation of a country thwart small terror cells, like Bin Ladin's happy go lucky following? Could better decisions that do not piss off half the world, and ruin a national economy make a difference? Could the powers that be recognize this fact of change and adapt? Apparently not.
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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-04-2005, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

Quote:
JimSmith - 5/4/2005 12:18 AM

KV,

I missed the show. How many Japanese died in Hiroshima and Nakasaki? Millions? How long did the Japanese continue to die from radiation exposure afterwards? Were these things detailed? I believe people live in the area now - are they experiencing high exposure rates and suffering from radiation related afflictions? Jim
You can buy a DVD at the PBS website. The transcript is here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/filmmore/pt.html

From my memory of the show, I believe these are good approximite figures for Japanese casualities in the last 6 months of WWII:

Napalm firebombings: 500,000
Strategic bombings: 120,000
Hiroshima: 100,000
Nagasaki: 75,000
Japanese troops: 200,000.

A little shy of a million casualities. If you add in those who died over the next few years of radiation induced disease, I am sure the figures would swell substantially. Another gray area is the number of Japanese troops that survived surrender in China and Indochina - many of them probably did not return home, totaling millions of individuals. Hundreds of thousands of them ended up in Russian hands as well, and Stalin was not known for returning POWs alive.

One of the surprising things about the film was their portrayal of Hirohito, whom most past histories I have read have protrayed as a brainless dupe of the fascist class. This film portrays him as a cold and ruthless son of a bitch who should have been hanged for war crimes. The war actually ended because he feared the end of the imperial system in Japan and his own power, otherwise he could give a shit how many people died.






Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-04-2005, 10:02 AM
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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 5/3/2005 6:52 PM

The absolutely most devastating events to all humanity were committed by the U.S.! The mass, mass execution of men, women, and children civilians, when atomic bombs were dropped on Japanese cities. Literally, wholesale murder of non-combatants. So you're calling that collateral damage? Also the thousands of mostly civilian people that died insidious deaths from radiation burns and poisoning for years afterward? More collateral damage? Those that made those decisions, will burn in the hottest part of HELL forever. I can't even imagine that we did such things and am throughly ashamed of that part of our history. In the wake of the horrendous attack, the United States government wrongly imprisoned its own citizens purely on the cries of "national security" and hatred of all things Japanese. Homes, business, personal property and lives were taken away from citizens who were Japanese in ancestry and thousands of Americans were imprisoned in internment camps. More collateral damage by our hands.
Your first sentence alone shows an amazingly poor grasp of history. For "most devastating", the US doesn't even come close. You may wish to study the millions killed in the Turkish genocide of Armenians, the 20 million killed by Stalin, or the 40 million killed by Mao.

You also appear to need reminding that Japan was one of the Axis powers (that would be the enemy) and, therefore, one of the aggressors of WWII. While we're at it, let's tally the 6 million deaths for which Hitler gets the credit. Granted, the two A-Bombs killed tens of thousands of people; Why this is more horrific than the hundreds of thousands or even millions of people killed by Japan is beyond me. Were these Japanese dead more valuable than the Americans lives that would have been lost during an invasion, the decision of the government at the time was "no". In the end, fewer total lives were lost by utilizing the atomic bomb than by conventional invasion.

Also, it is misleading to judge old (WWII) or even ancient (ie. Columbus) actions by today's standards.

No one will argue that the imprisonment of Japanese-American citizens was wrong. That was a shameful episode in our history. As far as burning in hell for those involved; that will be a decision neither you or I will make.


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RE: Victory Over Japan special on PBS

I cannot say who is wrong or right.
History has been changing by many people, I mean, history can be told differently by people.
Also everyone, each one has a different idea, thought, feeling etc abour war.

Always have a thought why we cannot get along together?!

Here is a pretty good site (I think).

http://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027j/final/groundzero1945/gz_menu.html

(You can click each picute)

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