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post #21 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-06-2005, 06:45 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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GermanStar - 5/5/2005 8:01 PM

Fair enough my friend. I may not share your view, but it's certainly worthy of respect. When does life begin? Conception? Birth? Or somewhere in between? It seems to me rather arbitrary to just select some point in between (there are so many factors one could key on as being more significant that the others), and I certainly don't go along with life at conception. That leaves birth, and that's where I hang my hat. An egg is an egg and a chicken is a chicken. An egg is not a chicken. Simplistic and completely arguable, but tangible. I like tangible.
All points in between are not necessarily arbitrary, although I'd agree with that statement when choosing 28 weeks of gestation as the demarcation line between a miscarriage and a still birth.
Could we not apply the same logic to determine when life ends but in reverse to determine when life begins. Many will disagree, but I'd consider that my life would be over as soon as brain's EEG exhibit no other activity than that which make me a vegetable. I would be comfortable in saying that before the central nervous system of the embryo exhibits organized patterns or activity, the embryo is just a collection of cells with no life of its own.
Using birth is also subject to debate because the fetus is viable before the normal term, so at minimum, if you had to adjust to current medical knowledge, you'd have to consider the point at which the fetus would have a great likelyhood of survival if a c-section were to be performed.
Anyway, a decision to abort is an agonizing one for an adult, the 13 y.o. girl, while I'd agree that she should be allowed to have an abortion, will not realize the traumatizing aspects of her decision until later (not that I think it should modify her decision if she were able to develop such understanding, a woman's got to do what a woman's got to do, even fully conscious of the consequences of her decision).

So you need to be 16 and own a license to operate a vehicle, you need a license or degree to perform some jobs, but to rear a child, a remarkable, important, and arduous task, you need nothing more than some state of consciousness (sometimes altered by chemical substances) and genital systems in good working order (I suppose one could rape a comatose person to prove me wrong). Used to be that the family unit would be able to install values to the children that would limit occurences of the subject of this debate...

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post #22 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-06-2005, 07:16 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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azimuth - 5/5/2005 7:29 PM
If someday life were proven to be present nearly simultaneous with conception, would you still maintain your proud position?
Of course - no matter what term you give to it, it's still not an independent lifeform, able to exist on its own. So, if you call it a life, a bundle of cells, an omelette, or whatever, it's still not capable of determining what it in its own best interest. And I'd still trust the mother of the "being" over all other judges, assuming she's competent, of course.
I'd much rather choose that route than leaving it up to one brother who has executed the retarded, or the other, who tried to keep a vegetable around past when she really died.

How many orphans have you adopted?

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post #23 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-06-2005, 10:49 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

I think she should have one...but not at taxpayer expense..........

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post #24 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-06-2005, 12:46 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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smurfccoupe - 5/6/2005 9:16 AM

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azimuth - 5/5/2005 7:29 PM
If someday life were proven to be present nearly simultaneous with conception, would you still maintain your proud position?
Of course - no matter what term you give to it, it's still not an independent lifeform, able to exist on its own. So, if you call it a life, a bundle of cells, an omelette, or whatever, it's still not capable of determining what it in its own best interest. And I'd still trust the mother of the "being" over all other judges, assuming she's competent, of course.
I'd much rather choose that route than leaving it up to one brother who has executed the retarded, or the other, who tried to keep a vegetable around past when she really died.

How many orphans have you adopted?
What is your definition of "independant life form"?

If you're inferring that I must have adopted a child to have the creedance to postulate the viablity of life, I reject that premise.

What is your position on partial birth abortion?

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post #25 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-06-2005, 12:54 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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GermanStar - 5/5/2005 9:01 PM

Fair enough my friend. I may not share your view, but it's certainly worthy of respect. When does life begin? Conception? Birth? Or somewhere in between? It seems to me rather arbitrary to just select some point in between (there are so many factors one could key on as being more significant that the others), and I certainly don't go along with life at conception. That leaves birth, and that's where I hang my hat. An egg is an egg and a chicken is a chicken. An egg is not a chicken. Simplistic and completely arguable, but tangible. I like tangible.
Knowing us, we could bloviate indefinitely on this and still maintain our positions with civility. I will say this, there are certain things in this life that I hope. I hope there is a fatherly God in a place we call heaven. I hope I go there. And finally, I hope you are right about when life begins. Were you to be wrong, we are both guilty.

Thanks for your time on this, G. You're only the second individual with whom I've been able to ahve this discussion in a civil manner. The other person is LK1 on this same board.

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post #26 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-09-2005, 09:48 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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azimuth - 5/6/2005 2:46 PM
What is your definition of "independant life form"?

If you're inferring that I must have adopted a child to have the creedance to postulate the viablity of life, I reject that premise.

What is your position on partial birth abortion?
My definition of an "independent life form" is a being that can live on its own and understand a particular course of action. Which is why I'm on the fence about partial birth abortion, honestly. However, what I don't like is when we talk about outright bans of late term abortions (that term sounds nicer!), which then choose the baby over the mother's health, which is not a good thing imho. From my understanding, late termers are a tiny % of abortions, and really do better work as a red herring for the anti-abortion crowd than as a serious independent issue, though I would not be opposed to banning them with reasonable restrictions. Would really harm the full-blown anti-abortion crowd, though, and works more in their favor to keep it around. For that reason, I'm guessing that it's going to be kept legal as long as abortion itself is.

My comment about how many kids that you've adopted was a question about what you've done about the unwanted children who are currently homeless. If you (in general) are anti-abortion, you should be more than willing to shell out the additional dollars that it takes to take care of these children. Otherwise, that's a very hypocrital and short-sided perspective, isn't it?

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post #27 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-09-2005, 09:50 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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smurfccoupe - 5/9/2005 11:48 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 5/6/2005 2:46 PM
What is your definition of "independant life form"?

If you're inferring that I must have adopted a child to have the creedance to postulate the viablity of life, I reject that premise.

What is your position on partial birth abortion?
My definition of an "independent life form" is a being that can live on its own and understand a particular course of action. Which is why I'm on the fence about partial birth abortion, honestly. However, what I don't like is when we talk about outright bans of late term abortions (that term sounds nicer!), which then choose the baby over the mother's health, which is not a good thing imho. From my understanding, late termers are a tiny % of abortions, and really do better work as a red herring for the anti-abortion crowd than as a serious independent issue, though I would not be opposed to banning them with reasonable restrictions. Would really harm the full-blown anti-abortion crowd, though, and works more in their favor to keep it around. For that reason, I'm guessing that it's going to be kept legal as long as abortion itself is.

My comment about how many kids that you've adopted was a question about what you've done about the unwanted children who are currently homeless. If you (in general) are anti-abortion, you should be more than willing to shell out the additional dollars that it takes to take care of these children. Otherwise, that's a very hypocrital and short-sided perspective, isn't it?
How do you know I haven't and am not supporting these "unwanted" children? Do I have to actually adopt one to understand the value of life in terms of what a human being can contribute to society over a lifetime?

I would ask you, how many children you have adopted?

Does your definition of an independant life form apply to life at any stage of developement?

I am perplexed, If partial birth abortion is used to save the mother's life, then the mother's life is threatened by the birth of the foetus. how does having the foetus be born, where all but the head is out of the birth canal, relieve the threat to the mother's life? With the head in the birth canal the foetus is 80% born. That's hardly relief. Mind you, the head needs to be accesible enough or close enough to the outer portion of the birth canal so as to puncture the skull with a sharp, rigid instrument and then suck the brains out to collapsed the skull. Are you aware that the foetus jerks and wriths violently when the sharp object, usually scissors, is jabbed into the back of it's skull?

I wonder why, if the foetus is 80% born, the physician cannot take the baby surgically and have it put up for adoption? How is the mother harmed then?

Let's remember that you have stated that in the event that we could prove when life began, you would still advocate the killing of that life if it became inconvenient to the interested parties. Am I correct?

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post #28 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-10-2005, 07:40 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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azimuth - 5/9/2005 10:50 PM
I am perplexed, If partial birth abortion is used to save the mother's life, then the mother's life is threatened by the birth of the foetus. how does having the foetus be born, where all but the head is out of the birth canal, relieve the threat to the mother's life? With the head in the birth canal the foetus is 80% born. That's hardly relief. Mind you, the head needs to be accesible enough or close enough to the outer portion of the birth canal so as to puncture the skull with a sharp, rigid instrument and then suck the brains out to collapsed the skull. Are you aware that the foetus jerks and wriths violently when the sharp object, usually scissors, is jabbed into the back of it's skull?
I'll drop the act on this one!

While I do support a woman's right to have an abortion, regardless of her motivations, I think that there should be a limit to the gestational stage at which one can be performed.

As you described it, partial birth abortions are barbaric and simply criminal.

I have no medical training, but could not the determination of a cause for such procedure be attainable early in the gestation? I can't imagine the trauma. As a father, more generally as a human being, the picture you painted for me makes me want to throw up, it hurts.

I'll express the same disbelief as you Azimuth. I can't see why the foetus is not allowed a chance in a NICU.

If partial birth abortions are performed when the life of the mother is at stake, then fine, C-section. The foetus can either make it in the incubator and everyone is safe and happy, or it can't, and Hypocrat, Azimuth, and I are less disgusted.

I suppose the difficult question is what if the baby is doomed to a life of hardships because of malformations from being extracted to early from the womb.

I can't imagine that anyone would have this procedure performed for convenience reasons. If there are, I suppose (and hope) that these will be traumatized for life.

The next question is about coverage. Who will accept the burden if the newborn is to spend weeks or months in the NICU and the parents are without insurance coverage?

Flame me for this, I think that medical care for everyone should be a priority over billions spent in foreign aid, wars, and lobbying. Let's take care of our kids (our future), our seniors (the ones without whom we would not be in the position we are in) and our sick (our lot, whomever we are, at some point in life).

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post #29 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-10-2005, 08:09 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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azimuth - 5/9/2005 11:50 PM Let's remember that you have stated that in the event that we could prove when life began, you would still advocate the killing of that life if it became inconvenient to the interested parties. Am I correct?
Yes, we can all read, that's what I said. Though I wouldn't view that person very well if they aborted just because they wanted to go to the beach that weekend, I support their right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

My view is that it's not my baby, my decision, my life that would be affected by its birth, so who am I to deny the choice to others? If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Yes, partial birth abortion is a nasty business. There's no surgical process that's pretty, is there? As I said previously, I think that there are circumstances where it's really a mother vs. the fetus decision, and I'd choose on the side of the mother.

I haven't adopted any children, but then I'm not the one saying that all of them need to be taken to full term, no matter what, either.

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post #30 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-10-2005, 11:45 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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smurfccoupe - 5/10/2005 10:09 AM

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azimuth - 5/9/2005 11:50 PM Let's remember that you have stated that in the event that we could prove when life began, you would still advocate the killing of that life if it became inconvenient to the interested parties. Am I correct?
Yes, we can all read, that's what I said. Though I wouldn't view that person very well if they aborted just because they wanted to go to the beach that weekend, I support their right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

My view is that it's not my baby, my decision, my life that would be affected by its birth, so who am I to deny the choice to others? If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Yes, partial birth abortion is a nasty business. There's no surgical process that's pretty, is there? As I said previously, I think that there are circumstances where it's really a mother vs. the fetus decision, and I'd choose on the side of the mother.

I haven't adopted any children, but then I'm not the one saying that all of them need to be taken to full term, no matter what, either.
Assuming that the foetus is verified to be alive and you advocate killing it what does that make you? Who else has advocated the killing of life for convenience sake? how many lives have been callously exterminated which did not fit the definition of viability of the day? We say things like "never again" relative to the holocaust where millions of men, women and children were murdered who didn't fit a standard applied by the powerful and capable. What is the difference here? Remember, for the sake of arguement, the standard you set for your advocacy is that the presence of life has been established.

Is a child of 2 years old fully viable based on your stated definition, "one that can live on it's own and understand a particular course of action? I've had two year olds and have known many. They do not fit your definition.

Is a severely retarded child of ten a fully viable life based on your definition?

Is a full grown adult with severe cerebral palsy a viable life form based on your definition?

Is an elderly late stage alzheimer's inflicted individual a viable life form based on your definition?

When the Jews were gassed, would you have stood by because, "Hey, I don't even know them"? "Hey, they are the citizens of germany. Germany has control over them. They define the Jews as less than human. Gassing and killing Jewish children is a nasty business, but it's not my business."

I asked you if you had adopted any children because based on your requirements of me, perhaps you should adopt a few before you can qualify as an advocate of the destruction and murder of these children in thier most vulnerable stage of life.


By the way, I'm assuming that youv'e asked these "unwanted" children if they would have preferred to be aborted as opposed to living life at any level. What were their responses?

Would you have preferred to be aborted? What would it take to make you wish you were aborted?


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