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post #11 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-02-2005, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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crash9 - 5/2/2005 9:24 AM

I’m definitely a flip-flopper on the abortion issue. Anti to the max as a youth, but then the girls became teenager's, and they and my wife lobbied me for a change in attitude.
Odd that religious groups so tuned into receiving an after life are so concerned about prolonging life. I love life and nature as much as anybody – shooed a beautiful 4’ Gopher snake off the road yesterday, but abortion is purely a woman’s issue. Maybe I’ve raised to many girls, but this is not a decision men should have any influence over.
Goes to my basic philosophy – “ Without a full set of data, your opinion has no value!�
I couldn't agree more, crash.

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post #12 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-03-2005, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

The decision came down today -- the judge granted the girl her request in direct opposition of her ward, the DCF. I also saw an interview with the girl's mother, who vehemently opposes the abortion on religious grounds. She loses custody of her children to the state, but still feels righteous enough to invoke the word of god -- unbelievable...

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post #13 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-04-2005, 07:33 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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GermanStar - 5/1/2005 11:38 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 5/1/2005 8:25 PM

I'm not sure a pig thinks about much more than food,self preservation and sleep. Why does anything have to be better than anything else? Well, that is my point. If the fetus is alive, why is the child better than it enough to choose to kill it? I'm not sure I was being arrogant, G.
Would you show the same concern toward dogs being put to sleep at the local pound? Or toward the hapless victims of big game trophy hunters? Or toward avian victims of dimwit 12 years olds and their BB guns?

The arrogance, as I see it, is with the anti-abortion (I loath the misnomer term "pro-life") position that relies on some ridiculous notion of a "sacred" status of humanity. If your position transcends that belief, then you don't fit the label.
Yeah, my respect for life is universal. My theory on big game, or any game, is that if one kills to eat, it's okay. It is the way of nature. It is the way of the jungle, as it were. To kill for sport or for selfish waste is disgraceful. When I was 7, I killed a bird. It was not the feeling I expected to have. I was ashamed of myself and sorry for the life I took uselessly. I have never intentionally killed anything since, that I did not use for sustenance.

I respect your opinions as having been carefully considered, G. I find the arguements on the pro-abortion (I also hate labels which inadequately describe the movement) side to be ultimately selfish. My opinion on the abortion issue is that there is no definative proof or fact as to when life begins. In the interest of the accuracy of scientific conclusions and for the sake of prudence and caution, when there is an absence of fact, do nothing. If someday science reaches the threshold of knowledge where proof of life's genesis is possible, and we discover that life begins before we have applied the definition today, then we have committed the ultimate holocaust....the ultimate atrocity. We have killed life at it most vulneralble stage. How ironic would it be for the animal rights advocates who are pro-abortionists to discover that little nugget?

On the other hand, if, in the absence of fact, we allow life to exist and we discover that life begins way later than we thought, the only damage we've done is cause a temporary inconvenience until the baby can be adopted.


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post #14 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 10:09 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

I think the girl should have the right to an abortion.....as long as she has she means to pay for it.

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post #15 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

As long as your belief extends across the broad spectrum of life on this planet rather than a microcosm of humanity, I have no real argument. On the other hand, as you say, one can't help but agree that our role as predators is to take life in order to sustain ours. The bottom line is that I have a deep and fundamental respect for all life, and at the same time have this realization that life is cheap. It's a perplexing dichotomy to be sure.

I will add that I have never met a cheerleader for abortion. I have met and include myself among those who feel unqualified to impose life-altering decisions upon women, and believe that abortion should remain an option to women as a viable (though not preferred) choice. That would make me pro-choice, not pro-abortion. There may be people on the planet who are pro-abortion -- I haven't encounterd one yet.

BTW, I resent your implication that my position is well thought out. You should know better.

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post #16 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 10:46 AM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

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GermanStar - 5/5/2005 12:16 PM

There may be people on the planet who are pro-abortion -- I haven't encounterd one yet.
You can now check that off your to do list. [^]

I think that it should be encouraged as much as possible. Especially with the current state of how we handle unwanted children, and the proposed changes in Texas, for example.

As far as contraceptives go, it ain't the cheapest, but it sure is effective.

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post #17 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 04:57 PM
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A scientific definition of life? Here!

Quote:
azimuth - 5/4/2005 8:33 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 5/1/2005 11:38 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 5/1/2005 8:25 PM

I'm not sure a pig thinks about much more than food,self preservation and sleep. Why does anything have to be better than anything else? Well, that is my point. If the fetus is alive, why is the child better than it enough to choose to kill it? I'm not sure I was being arrogant, G.
Would you show the same concern toward dogs being put to sleep at the local pound? Or toward the hapless victims of big game trophy hunters? Or toward avian victims of dimwit 12 years olds and their BB guns?

The arrogance, as I see it, is with the anti-abortion (I loath the misnomer term "pro-life") position that relies on some ridiculous notion of a "sacred" status of humanity. If your position transcends that belief, then you don't fit the label.
Yeah, my respect for life is universal. My theory on big game, or any game, is that if one kills to eat, it's okay. It is the way of nature. It is the way of the jungle, as it were. To kill for sport or for selfish waste is disgraceful. When I was 7, I killed a bird. It was not the feeling I expected to have. I was ashamed of myself and sorry for the life I took uselessly. I have never intentionally killed anything since, that I did not use for sustenance.

I respect your opinions as having been carefully considered, G. I find the arguements on the pro-abortion (I also hate labels which inadequately describe the movement) side to be ultimately selfish. My opinion on the abortion issue is that there is no definative proof or fact as to when life begins. In the interest of the accuracy of scientific conclusions and for the sake of prudence and caution, when there is an absence of fact, do nothing. If someday science reaches the threshold of knowledge where proof of life's genesis is possible, and we discover that life begins before we have applied the definition today, then we have committed the ultimate holocaust....the ultimate atrocity. We have killed life at it most vulneralble stage. How ironic would it be for the animal rights advocates who are pro-abortionists to discover that little nugget?

On the other hand, if, in the absence of fact, we allow life to exist and we discover that life begins way later than we thought, the only damage we've done is cause a temporary inconvenience until the baby can be adopted.
Main Entry: life
Pronunciation: 'lIf
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural lives /'lIvz/
A terminal, sexually transmitted disease.

Also bridges GermanStar's theory of infection.

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post #18 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 05:29 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

Quote:
smurfccoupe - 5/5/2005 12:46 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 5/5/2005 12:16 PM

There may be people on the planet who are pro-abortion -- I haven't encounterd one yet.
You can now check that off your to do list. [^]

I think that it should be encouraged as much as possible. Especially with the current state of how we handle unwanted children, and the proposed changes in Texas, for example.

As far as contraceptives go, it ain't the cheapest, but it sure is effective.
If someday life were proven to be present nearly simultaneous with conception, would you still maintain your proud position?


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post #19 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 05:54 PM
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

Quote:
GermanStar - 5/5/2005 12:16 PM

As long as your belief extends across the broad spectrum of life on this planet rather than a microcosm of humanity, I have no real argument. On the other hand, as you say, one can't help but agree that our role as predators is to take life in order to sustain ours. The bottom line is that I have a deep and fundamental respect for all life, and at the same time have this realization that life is cheap. It's a perplexing dichotomy to be sure.

I will add that I have never met a cheerleader for abortion. I have met and include myself among those who feel unqualified to impose life-altering decisions upon women, and believe that abortion should remain an option to women as a viable (though not preferred) choice. That would make me pro-choice, not pro-abortion. There may be people on the planet who are pro-abortion -- I haven't encounterd one yet.

BTW, I resent your implication that my position is well thought out. You should know better.
True, we are predatory in our omnivory (I made that word up). Mrs. Az and I eat meat sparingly. We prefer grains and vegies etc.

I can see your respect for life woven in the content of your posts. I would say that life is only as cheap as we make it. If we treat it lightly, we have cheapened it in the same way that some have treated thier marital covenants cheaply and so have cheapened marriage so much that it is regarded with disdain by many.

I can see the logic in not wanting to tell another human being what to do with thier body. However, we do it all the time. We tell folks that they may not do harm by wildly swinging thier fists so as to contact suddenly the space that another person's nose occupies. True, this is a simplistic example and it supposes that the other entity is a person with human rights. We have not proven one way or the other that a foetus is or is not a human life. The folks who are pro the choice to abort say it's not. The folks against the choice to abort say it is.

I look at it this way, I have no way to prove a foetus is a life. But I believe the path of least harm is to allow the life to be. I've chosen this path by watching and listening to the dehumanizing arguements made by the Pro-aborts relative to the status of a foetus, and they sound an awful lot like the arguements the white slave ownwers made to justify the ownership and mistreatment of other humans. The same arguements were made to justify the killing of Jews in Nazi germany. The same arguements were used to justify the starvation of millions in Stalinist Russia. I will not play into those arguements. In the end they hope to cloud an arguement for selfishness....and that, my friend, cheapens life.

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post #20 of 75 (permalink) Old 05-05-2005, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Girl, 13, argues right to abortion

Fair enough my friend. I may not share your view, but it's certainly worthy of respect. When does life begin? Conception? Birth? Or somewhere in between? It seems to me rather arbitrary to just select some point in between (there are so many factors one could key on as being more significant that the others), and I certainly don't go along with life at conception. That leaves birth, and that's where I hang my hat. An egg is an egg and a chicken is a chicken. An egg is not a chicken. Simplistic and completely arguable, but tangible. I like tangible.

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