Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages. - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 08:15 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
lovemyc280 - 4/17/2005 10:12 PM

Quote:
MRTIKKET - 4/16/2005 3:05 AM

Quote:
lovemyc280 - 4/16/2005 2:19 AM

What if it is two HIV black kids that nobody wants to adopt? Is it ok for two gay men/women to raise them then?
Nothing much sadder than that scenerio, but my answer is still a resounding NOPE!
So you are the man, who will step up to the plate and take these children into your homes? Raise them? Give them love, support, selfless hours of your time, like they were your own? Any of your friends who would step up and adopt these children?

I've known enough crappy hetero parents (drunk, druggies, nuts, plain assholes, you name it) that the agument against gays adopting is a joke at this point anyway.
You're not suggesting that because junkie heterosexuals can have kids that gay junkies should have them too, are you?
Botnst is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 10:19 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

The first reaction from any kind of criticism (of gay families), is a knee-jerk, devils advocate defense, because people think the comments were motivated by closed mindedness, religiousness, or conservatism. The educated mind then moves past the first impression, and thinks deeper. The basic facts about gay family dynamics are that - The union between same sex adults is usually much more unstable, because of societal and legal presures that go along with the "alternative lifestyle" that is not mainstream. The bulk of society still does not accept this lifestyle, whether or not, it is fair or not. These issues do affect longevity of the union that ALSO negatively affects the children they have. Fact - Drug and alcohol abuse in this demographic is three times the amount than in hetros. Good for children? Definately NOT! HIV and the related illness are definate considerations also, since most (not all) gay men fall into this deadly demographic! HIV diagnosed, parent(s)? Want kids around HIV? NO!!! When people use the phrase,"All things being equal", I always balk. The dynamics of homosexual unions and hetro family units are completely different. Even in ideal conditions, raising healthy, mentally well adjusted kids is VERY DIFFICULT. Less than ideal conditions - only puts the child at risk for failure. Take a realistic look at YOUR life, BEFORE having children, because children must live with your decision, good or bad...

"I have spent MOST of the money I have made in my life on expensive women, expensive cars, and expensive drugs. The rest I just wasted." S-KLASSE8, "Belief in the supernatural, reflects a failure in the imagination." - Edward Abbey "Give me a firm place to stand, and I will move the Earth." - Archimedes - 1979 (fully restored) 450SLC - 1989 (fully restored)420SEL - "S CLASS STYLE - S CLASS ATTITUDE"
S-KLASSE8 is offline  
post #33 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 11:46 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
azimuth's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
JimSmith - 4/17/2005 4:28 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 4/17/2005 4:14 AM

respectfully, kuan, I have to ask....how can all of these options be "the best environment"? I think by definition, the "best" requires a singular example.

Wouldn't you say?
Well, Azimuth, I think you are purposely narrowing the discussion down to a point where there is no other choice than yours. The point I got from kuan1's post was for every kid there is a single solution, and, if that solution consists of a positive and caring environment created by the parents, then whether or not the parents are mom and dad, mom and mom, dad and dad, and so forth is not as important as it might seem.

If you twist it around a little it also suggests a kid with a mom and mom who are loving, caring and positive is probably better than being in a home with a father who has his hands in your pants between episodes of beating your mother. I would agree with that even though I do not find the gay lifestyle likely to be the most advantageous arrangement for raising children.

I recognize most kids don't have the most advantageous arrangement. They don't get to choose, they just have to deal with what it is when they arrive. On a scale of arrangements that are possible, arranged with best possible at the top, and worst possible at the bottom, I don't think I would find a line with all the gay possibilities in the list below it and all hetero possibilities above it. It is the same with wealth, and nearly any criteria you use to order your list. However, in all the lists, a positive, caring environment will always elevate the possible family strucure compared to any other possibility that lacks such characteristics.

Jim
Hey Jim, long time....

The statement "best case" is in it's nature limiting. We seek the best case in everything we do, no? I don't see why this issue should be any different. My position is that a married couple with a loving and attentive mother and father, provide the best possible environment for the raising of children-the advancement of the species. I submit that evolution has controlled out the other possibilities for growth. Evolution filters out the weakest or less able of everything does it not? absent artificial manipulation, evoulution will weed out the weakest situations eventually...even poor heterosexual ones. We see the advancement of children whose parents provide them the best opprtunities over those whose parents, through poor descision making processes or what have you, can provide little more than life itself. Is that unfair? yes, but that is evolution-the advancement of the species.

an example of a poorly operated heterosexual family as a justification for a another less than best scenario family relative to child developement, still falls short of the mark. Is it unfair that homesexuals can't physically (without manipulation) have children? As it relates to the joy and satisfaction that children bring to the individual and the couple, yes. As it relates to evolution, no. Cruel as it may be, evolution has controlled out (at least for now) the homosexual couple.

For some, this is a moral issue. For me it is only moral in that it is our first responsibilty to assure that the children have the best that can be had to advance the specie.

Thanks for your time, Jim.

aborted Shop Forum member

azimuth is offline  
post #34 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 12:00 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
azimuth's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
kuan1 - 4/17/2005 8:52 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 4/17/2005 9:54 AM
Are you suggesting that "positive and caring" are the sole ingredients for proper child raising environment?
No, I didn't say only, or just, or necessarily. Positive and caring and all that it implies is sufficient. That's my position.

I can tell you what it doesn't imply. It doesn't imply heroin user, petty thief. Wait, it's obvious isn't it?
Well what if the petty thief were positive and caring to the child? Are poor life choices and positive caring mutually exclusive? I'll bet you could ask any never married single mother if she is positive and caring enough for her children, the bulk of them would say yes. Is that enough? I suggest no. There will always be something missing in the children's lives. Do we take that mother's chilren away and "provide" them a better situation? No, but neither should we fool ourselves into believing that she is providing all that the children need.

Compared to families comprised of a loving, married and attentive father and mother, single parent families are inadequate, shack-up families are inadequate and homosexual families are inadequate. This is not to say that married heterosexual families are faultless and impervious to decay. They are. I am conviced that broken traditional nuclear families are the result of poor personal/individual choices and not the institution of heteromarriage itself.

aborted Shop Forum member

azimuth is offline  
post #35 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 12:06 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
azimuth's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
GermanStar - 4/17/2005 9:13 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 4/17/2005 7:54 AM

Are you suggesting that "positive and caring" are the sole ingredients for proper child raising environment?
Is sexual orientation a more important factor than say, a strong desire to carry concealed weapons? Bangers and thugs carry concealed weapons, does that mean that all who carry concealed weapons are bangers and thugs?
Help me out G, I know you're poking me in the eye, here. I just can't get the comparison. No, not all concealed carry persons are bangers and thugs. Help me connect the rest of the dots.

aborted Shop Forum member

azimuth is offline  
post #36 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 12:12 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
azimuth's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
lovemyc280 - 4/17/2005 10:14 PM

Quote:
MRTIKKET - 4/16/2005 3:01 AM

I have no children, however several of my nieces are very confused about a few kids who have two mommies or two daddies, either because of being gay or divorce and remarriage. It just seems that we shouldn't have to try and explain this to six year olds. Let kids be kids.
Right, let them be kids. No need to explain anything. Most kids don't judge until they are taught to.
I know I've got three bogeys on my six about this topic already so what's a fourth? Don't you think that children in a gay family will be prematurely exposed to sexuality or sexual orientation as a result of societal forces because of thier familial situation? So, why deliberatley expose them to that by institutionalizing gay adoption?

aborted Shop Forum member

azimuth is offline  
post #37 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 07:50 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Thomas Jefferson stated that certan human rights exist before government itself exists, those rights being the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It always amazes me how those who always seem to beat their chests over how patriotic they are and how "conservative" they are and how much they love the Founding Fathers, totally ignore the fact that this society, because of grotesque social prejudice, denies these rights that form the very foundation of this country, the rights of pursuit of happiness and liberty, to gay people. The right to choose one's spouse to spend one's life with, the right to raise children no one else wants, the right to live one's life without worry over the government peeking through their keyholes, are fundamental human rights. To hell with those who would deny them.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #38 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 09:16 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
azimuth's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
kvining - 4/18/2005 9:50 AM

Thomas Jefferson stated that certan human rights exist before government itself exists, those rights being the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It always amazes me how those who always seem to beat their chests over how patriotic they are and how "conservative" they are and how much they love the Founding Fathers, totally ignore the fact that this society, because of grotesque social prejudice, denies these rights that form the very foundation of this country, the rights of pursuit of happiness and liberty, to gay people. The right to choose one's spouse to spend one's life with, the right to raise children no one else wants, the right to live one's life without worry over the government peeking through their keyholes, are fundamental human rights. To hell with those who would deny them.
I understand the point you're making KV. It is a good one. I wrestle with freedom of will and the consequences of the excercise of that will relative to others. Where ever possible I try to err on the side of freedom. As it relates to children, I still believe the best case scenario should be the goal. Should gays be allowed to marry? I'm offended by that Q. Who has the right to "allow" any consenting adults to do what they want with thier lives. Until we see that society is affected negatively in a substatial way, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

As to the proper raising of children, I go to the best case scenario. If the nation can find no other married male/female couples to which to abopt these "unwanted" children, then go to the next best thing and so on. For the sake of societal advancement, there should be a pecking order. I have no problem with gay couples adopting children if there is no other better situation available.

Did'nt Thomas Jefferson also own slaves? Weren't all men created equal...as long as they were men?


I know, can of worms.

aborted Shop Forum member

azimuth is offline  
post #39 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 09:23 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

Quote:
azimuth - 4/18/2005 8:16 AM

As to the proper raising of children, I go to the best case scenario. If the nation can find no other married male/female couples to which to abopt these "unwanted" children, then go to the next best thing and so on. For the sake of societal advancement, there should be a pecking order. I have no problem with gay couples adopting children if there is no other better situation available.
OK -- you just made my point [extracts finger from eye]... That's pretty much the approach taken with single parents, isn't it?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #40 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-18-2005, 09:26 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Oregon court voids 3,000 gay marriages.

After reading all the posts, I've changed my mind.

We live in a throw away society. If a couple gay or straight wants to take in children who need care, who am I to get in the way. Certainly the odds seem better than having the children bounce around in some broken down government system.
MRTIKKET is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome