US founding fathers were insurgents - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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US founding fathers were insurgents

By the dictionary definition the founders of the United States and the Revolutionary soldiers were insurgents.

I saw a thread like this in another forum and thought it may enjoyed here.

I like thoughts that reach for perspective. We hear and see the word insurgent used as a dirty word often these days. Depending on the context and your viewpoint it may be just what you make of it.
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 05:49 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

Patriot
Freedom Fighter
Contra
Peace Keeping Force
Rebels
Militia
Revolutionary
Leftist
Right Wing
Partisan
Resistance
Loyalist

The lexicon of the spin doctors.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 06:17 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

The founders of the US and Israel each used terrorist tactics in order to achieve their goals. If you agree with those goals, the means were justified, if you don't...
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 07:25 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

That's all.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 07:30 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

It probably depends on your definition. But I'll provide some differences between the FF's and the modern insurgents, starting with say, the VC.

Founding Fathers targeted British military and government. There were some occasional civilian abuses by the revolutionaries against their loyalist neighbors, but it was never part of the strategy. In fact, Gen Washington argued strenuously against abusing loyalists as he knew that the revolution started with a MINORITY of people supporting it. Geo wanted to get the fence straddlers and luke-warm royalists on his side by reason, not intimidation. It worked, too.

FF had a uniformed army under general command of the revolutionary government. They certainly did adopt non-European standard army tactics, mainly because every time they tried European tactics they got their asses handed to them by professional British soldiers. Even so, the FF followed most of the gentlemanly rules like accepting an officer's parole and prisoner exchange. Also, the FF took beter care, in general, of their prisoners than did the Brits.

The FF minted their own money and stood behind it.

The FF were working toward democratic self rule from the beginning.

Now compare those points with modern insurgencies.

B
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 08:16 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

So, you agreed with the FF's goals then?
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 08:22 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 4/14/2005 10:16 PM

So, you agreed with the FF's goals then?
Is there anything in my list that you believe is false or misrepresentative of fact?
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 09:58 PM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

I think you're focusing on the "official" insurgents, while I believe many revolutionary efforts are made up of a multitude of disparate factions, often disagreeing about tactics, but sharing the same end goal. The official US insurgents may've fit your description, but no doubt, there were others who did not, and in fact, may've been more akin to the Iraqi freedom fighters we hear about today.

Was John Brown an "official" abolitionist?
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 03:22 AM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

Zeit,
Seems like your mind is closed. You've made a statement , and Bot has refuted it. Instead of replying to his argument, you sidestep the issue.
You want to believe that all "insurgents" are of the same cloth. Somehow this must feed into your "hate America" mindset.
There are many significant distinctions between the FF and your modern "insurgents". The comparison makes your "insurgents" look more like terrorists and hoodlums, than leaders of a true political movement.
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 07:26 AM
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RE: US founding fathers were insurgents

Quote:
Botnst - 4/14/2005 9:30 PM

It probably depends on your definition. But I'll provide some differences between the FF's and the modern insurgents, starting with say, the VC.

Founding Fathers targeted British military and government. There were some occasional civilian abuses by the revolutionaries against their loyalist neighbors, but it was never part of the strategy. In fact, Gen Washington argued strenuously against abusing loyalists as he knew that the revolution started with a MINORITY of people supporting it. Geo wanted to get the fence straddlers and luke-warm royalists on his side by reason, not intimidation. It worked, too.

FF had a uniformed army under general command of the revolutionary government. They certainly did adopt non-European standard army tactics, mainly because every time they tried European tactics they got their asses handed to them by professional British soldiers. Even so, the FF followed most of the gentlemanly rules like accepting an officer's parole and prisoner exchange. Also, the FF took beter care, in general, of their prisoners than did the Brits.

The FF minted their own money and stood behind it.

The FF were working toward democratic self rule from the beginning.

Now compare those points with modern insurgencies.

B
There is only one point to compare: whether you are speaking of the American Revolutionaries or the Iraqi insurgents, they were and are just men fighting a foreign invader that has insinuated themselves on the soil of one's country through violence and force of arms. Armed insurrection in the face of foreign troops who come to murder people in order to further the aims of their own governments is always justified.




Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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