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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 09:50 PM
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RE: She's dead

Not sure about all of that. I just think there should be no condition that would not allow the parents or siblings of anyone who is dying to be separated. I understand and agree that the courts should hold up the husband's right to be the guardian for what ever his reasons. Even the worst of all possible. He could come out looking like a Hero if he would just let her parents bury her now. After all, he agreed to the autopsy. No need to abuse them now that he is free and clear. It is just sad. The whole state of affairs. The bulimia, the fighting, the whole mess. I can't imagine if the find out that she was not as brain dead as they thought. Still I don't think they would be able to ascertain from an autopsy if she was developing another part of her brain. A region that is not normally used but has developed in others after accidents, and things of this nature!!
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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 10:08 PM
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RE: She's dead

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 3/31/2005 8:03 PM

Quote:
koop - 3/31/2005 8:52 PM

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 3/31/2005 8:24 PM

I keep seeing some of you clowns deluding yourself into believing that if you are legally within the law, that must mean that you are morally and ethically right. WRONG! Michael Schiavo is within his lawful rights to starve her to death, not allow her parents to be present at her time of death, and cremate, and bury her out of state, away from her parents. Tell me...? Is he right? NOOO! What murderer is running around legally, after killing his wife? OJ...... Is OJ right? Ever wonder why Mr. Schiavo didn't divorce Terri or turn her over to her parents? Because her parents would have been able to prove abuse by him. He would not allow any such investigations to be done, because he KNOWS he is guilty. The autopsy will prove this. Don't you love forensic science? When he is convicted for lying about her wishes, to cover up his crimes, and possibly a wrongful death charge. I hope the MANY, MANY, MANY other prisoners will give him ALL their love, for MANY years.
Now, think about it for a moment. He sued her doctors for failure to diagnose her condition. They had all her medical records. They are looking at millions of dollars in exposure. If there were any evidence of abuse, don't you think it would have come out in trial?
The 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.�

Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

Dr. Lieberman concludes: “He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ‘incident’ that caused Terri’s collapse and her current condition.�

Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife’s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.

However, of all Michael’s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael’s excuse is to say that she wouldn’t want a standard burial because she “doesn’t like bugs.� I’m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide – like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? – and he doesn’t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.

So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.� Michael wants Terri cremated for a reason, no autopsy could be ordered once the investigation has started on him for abuse later on.
Am I the only one who hears circus music when I read this???
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 03:50 AM
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RE: She's dead

I thought that most religions preach an "everlasting life" to believers - you know - the same stuff that propels suicide bombers. How come then that so many wanted Terri to continue living in her poor state. Seems we abhor suicide/kamikaze zealots, yet extol nirvana - but Heaven forbid we allow a natural transition.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 05:52 AM Thread Starter
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RE: She's dead

Quote:
Robschaef - 3/31/2005 8:18 PM

Well, I guess I am just different. To me, when we said till death do us part. Those were true words to me and meant exactly what was said in our vows. I know that makes me a very old fashioned 38 year old. I agree that he was a legal guardian, and that a judge should hold that up. I am not saying that the judges were wrong. I don't really agree that this is some Machiavellian Republican agenda drama, but we all have the right to our opinion. I just think, if you want to consider your spouse done for and want to find another. You should let the parents reassume guardianship if that is what they want to do. Not as a standard. I don't think that family members should ever, under any circumstances not be allowed to be with their children and siblings. That is just horrific!!
The "Republican agenda drama" is easy to see - just follow the money. The same people who gave millions to try to destroy Clinton are the same people financing the Schindlers.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 05:57 AM Thread Starter
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RE: She's dead

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S-KLASSE8 - 3/31/2005 8:24 PM

I keep seeing some of you clowns deluding yourself into believing that if you are legally within the law, that must mean that you are morally and ethically right. WRONG! Michael Schiavo is within his lawful rights to starve her to death, not allow her parents to be present at her time of death, and cremate, and bury her out of state, away from her parents. Tell me...? Is he right? NOOO! What murderer is running around legally, after killing his wife? OJ...... Is OJ right? Ever wonder why Mr. Schiavo didn't divorce Terri or turn her over to her parents? Because her parents would have been able to prove abuse by him. He would not allow any such investigations to be done, because he KNOWS he is guilty. The autopsy will prove this. Don't you love forensic science? When he is convicted for lying about her wishes, to cover up his crimes, and possibly a wrongful death charge. I hope the MANY, MANY, MANY other prisoners will give him ALL their love, for MANY years.
It's nice to see you go on record saying "the autopsy will prove this". Perhaps when you find out how wrong you are, you will wake up. Here is the truth: this case has been in the courts for seven years. An army of lawyers, backed by millions of dollars in right-wing money, have worked for seven years to find one shred of evidence to change the outcome of this. So far the only "evidence" of your claims has been right wing talk show blather, and not one shred of anything that has stood up in court.

As far as the parent thing goes, all you people who think you get a lifetime to have mommy and daddy take care of you are a bunch of pussies. Why don't you grow up?


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 06:12 AM Thread Starter
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RE: She's dead

Quote:
Joe Bauers - 3/31/2005 8:47 PM

Posted by Kirk Vining: . . .Mr. Shiavo for being the world's greatest prick

-----------------------------------------------------

I must have missed something here--how, in your estimation Kirk, does Michael S. deserve this title? Or were you being ironic? Admittedly, I have not followed the intimate details of his relationship with his wife's family. Tell me more.

Joe B.
My position on this guy is this - legally, he is perfectly in his rights to take the actions he took, and the courts have been good stewards of the law in the decisions they have made. But as a person, the guy is rephrehensible. There looks like there would have been little harm in him signing over his guardian rights to the tomato plant that used to be his wife, to his deluded in-laws, who lived in a world of fantasy that their daughter was actually communicating with them in her grunts and growls of spontaneous motor activity. He should have let them have their delusions.

My guess is the in-laws are a bunch of pricks too, and that this whole bunch deserves each other - they have been locked in a cycle of tit-for-tat revenge for years, probably started by mom and dad's feeling the guy is responsible for her condition. Michael has probably been exacting his revenge on them for years, simply because he can do it, and probably because he didn't harm her, of which there is ample evidence that he did not. The guy has a right to one hell of a resentment if that is the case.

The first few years of the vegative state, the guy acted completely opposite of what one would expect of a murderer, and was actually sued at one time for being too demanding of a hospital in their care of the women, and was by all accounts devoted to her care. After about eight years of this, I think it became obvious to the guy his wife was no longer home. According to the court records, he left it up to a medical panel to reccommend what to do, and it was them that reccommended her life be ended, on the grounds that there was no sign of cognitive or concious function inside this women's skull, and then fireworks began. When it was obvious they had no legal standing in court, the Schindlers turned to the pro-life crazies, and dragged the rest of us into the specticle of their totally fucked up family. Thanks a lot.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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RE: She's dead

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 3/31/2005 9:03 PM

Quote:
koop - 3/31/2005 8:52 PM

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 3/31/2005 8:24 PM

I keep seeing some of you clowns deluding yourself into believing that if you are legally within the law, that must mean that you are morally and ethically right. WRONG! Michael Schiavo is within his lawful rights to starve her to death, not allow her parents to be present at her time of death, and cremate, and bury her out of state, away from her parents. Tell me...? Is he right? NOOO! What murderer is running around legally, after killing his wife? OJ...... Is OJ right? Ever wonder why Mr. Schiavo didn't divorce Terri or turn her over to her parents? Because her parents would have been able to prove abuse by him. He would not allow any such investigations to be done, because he KNOWS he is guilty. The autopsy will prove this. Don't you love forensic science? When he is convicted for lying about her wishes, to cover up his crimes, and possibly a wrongful death charge. I hope the MANY, MANY, MANY other prisoners will give him ALL their love, for MANY years.
Now, think about it for a moment. He sued her doctors for failure to diagnose her condition. They had all her medical records. They are looking at millions of dollars in exposure. If there were any evidence of abuse, don't you think it would have come out in trial?
The 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.�

Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

Dr. Lieberman concludes: “He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ‘incident’ that caused Terri’s collapse and her current condition.�

Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife’s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.

However, of all Michael’s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael’s excuse is to say that she wouldn’t want a standard burial because she “doesn’t like bugs.� I’m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide – like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? – and he doesn’t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.

So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.� Michael wants Terri cremated for a reason, no autopsy could be ordered once the investigation has started on him for abuse later on.
After 30 trials, numerous press and police investigations, all of these issues have been introduced by Schindler's lawyers, adjudicated and determined unfounded. The women was seriously mentally disturbed, as all bulimics are. She puked herself into a vegatative state.

In addition, I wish you would post links to backup what you assert. Both I and Metaphysical Pajamas have, doing our best to cite neutral sources. I can find no record that she "suffered a broken back". I can find a record that the court determined she suffered broken ribs and other trauma due to the fall and due to paramedics pounding on her chest. Meanwhile, a cottage industry of medical talking heads have sprung up, getting paid to make assertions on Fox News that people like you WANT TO BELIEVE IS TRUE. Sorry, I'll let the courts do the job. If one is to believe your assertions, one must believe that thirty judges, including the US Supreme Court - three times for them - disregarded some type of compelling evidence in this case that you claim changes everything. What you are asserting is simply unbelievable.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 12:47 PM
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RE: She's dead

The autopsy being performed, as we speak, will address TWO (count'em), TWO issues. Exactly, how much brain mass, physically, she had to serve her cognitive skills and abilities. This will absolutely tell everyone whether or not that the rehabilitation THAT SHE DID NOT RECIEVE BY DIRECT ORDER OF HER LOVING HUSBAND, would have kept the feeding tube out of her mouth, so she would not have been in a state that her husband COULD HAVE HAD HER STARVED TO DEATH. He said NO to any rehabilitation for her, after he told the court otherwise. Even if she possessed the ability to get any better, he wouldn't allow it to happen. Her doctors will have to answer to these results, about stating that she was absolutey in a PVS state. The doctors will also be looking for any signs of former abuse by the loving husband Michael. And yes they will be able to tell the difference between injuries incurred by resuscitation and by his hands. Don't you just love the level that forensic medicine has risen to? His ass is going to jail. Wanna bet???

"I have spent MOST of the money I have made in my life on expensive women, expensive cars, and expensive drugs. The rest I just wasted." S-KLASSE8, "Belief in the supernatural, reflects a failure in the imagination." - Edward Abbey "Give me a firm place to stand, and I will move the Earth." - Archimedes - 1979 (fully restored) 450SLC - 1989 (fully restored)420SEL - "S CLASS STYLE - S CLASS ATTITUDE"
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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RE: She's dead

Sure, what do you want to bet?


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-01-2005, 01:07 PM
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RE: She's dead

Quote:
kvining - 4/1/2005 2:51 PM

Sure, what do you want to bet?
A steak dinner at the OUTBACK STEAK HOUSE? Bet's on............

"I have spent MOST of the money I have made in my life on expensive women, expensive cars, and expensive drugs. The rest I just wasted." S-KLASSE8, "Belief in the supernatural, reflects a failure in the imagination." - Edward Abbey "Give me a firm place to stand, and I will move the Earth." - Archimedes - 1979 (fully restored) 450SLC - 1989 (fully restored)420SEL - "S CLASS STYLE - S CLASS ATTITUDE"
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