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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 02:05 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

don't worry ladies and gentlemen. The gouls appear to have won the day. Soon enough, they will, with crocodile tears, celebrate the heroic life of Terri and the beautiful specter of her termination. Let the thinly veiled gloat parties begin.

In my opinion, there seem to be enough inconsistencies and uncertainties orbiting this matter as to warrant enough time to review this case one last time with all the new info. and witnesses in live court proceedings with a new judge. The rush to act here at the end reminds me of the moves to go to war with Iraq by G. W.

After years and yaers of dealing with the problem we finally get sick enough of it that we expeditiously move to action with all the rationalizations in a row. Unfortunately, the facts may not be what they appear to be, but it will be too late for Terri if they are ever discovered unquestionably. At least Saddam is still alive.

I know the two circumstances are not exactly the same. Fine. The fatal flaw in both actions seems to be the denial of the time necesary to be ABSOLUTELY and undeniably sure before we act.

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 06:06 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

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azimuth - 3/29/2005 4:05 PM

don't worry ladies and gentlemen. The gouls appear to have won the day. Soon enough, they will, with crocodile tears, celebrate the heroic life of Terri and the beautiful specter of her termination. Let the thinly veiled gloat parties begin.

In my opinion, there seem to be enough inconsistencies and uncertainties orbiting this matter as to warrant enough time to review this case one last time with all the new info. and witnesses in live court proceedings with a new judge. The rush to act here at the end reminds me of the moves to go to war with Iraq by G. W.

After years and yaers of dealing with the problem we finally get sick enough of it that we expeditiously move to action with all the rationalizations in a row. Unfortunately, the facts may not be what they appear to be, but it will be too late for Terri if they are ever discovered unquestionably. At least Saddam is still alive.

I know the two circumstances are not exactly the same. Fine. The fatal flaw in both actions seems to be the denial of the time necesary to be ABSOLUTELY and undeniably sure before we act.
Azi,
I know we have opposing views but how is 15 YEARS rushing to make a decision? How many trials, medical exams, etc are necessary to meet your definition of adequate time?
This woman is nothing but a political prisoner of the Republicans and Far Right Wing religious nut jobs.
The only good thing to come out of the debacle is the unmasking of the hypocricy involved. 65% of the American public favor letting the woman die. Me too. I only hope the ones fighting so hard for "Terri's right to live" spend 15 years lingering on with a feeding tube jammed down their throat's. Same for the Pope, I hope he hangs on for another 20 years, maybe he will finally understand the humanity in assisted suicide. God sure does work in mysterious ways!
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 06:36 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

Sup LK? I made the connection with invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam to illustrate the issue. 15 years is a long time to deal with this. We agree here. Where I think the rush is that here at the end there seems to be some equivocation or at least some opposing professional opinions and the moves to get it done seem to circumvent the full disclosure or at least consideration of the new components. This is where I think the rush comes in. Just like some folks (myself included) believe that G.W. rushed to war at the end of a (something like) 12 year uncooperative, combative relationship between Saddam and the rest of the world. They were both trails that stretched decades. I think both actions are, from what I can see, illadvised in thier lack of full knowledge before the action.

What do you think buddy? I respect your opinion.

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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 07:46 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

From what I have read of the "facts" it seems that there has not been a rush to unplug Terri. What has finally happened is that every legal (and illegal) obstacle, device, game and intervention has run its course and it is finally time to let her go.
The difference here is that you have a governor intimately connected with the President trying to make political gain from the tragedy. The religious right has exercised so much influence in this case that there will be a backlash against it.
Most middle of the road people, and almost all of the group that votes the most, senior citizens, view this as nothing more then political grandstanding at its most craven. My father rarely discusses politics, not that I don't know where he stands, but he was totally disgusted by the religious right's influence in this case. This past December, his sister, my aunt, who had a living will chose to pass peacefully in a hospice, as opposed to being revived repeatedly to keep suffering with her incurable cancer. While I have no absolute certainty as to Schiavo's care I seriously doubt she is in any pain, as alleged by those with less knowledge than me. BTW, this case cuts closest to home for the elderly and they vote!
I think that Bush's (Rove's) policy of divide and conquer (gay marriage, abortion, Iraq and the latest, Social Security) may have started to wear thin. Even the most idealogical and dim witted (VD/79-300sd, et al excepted) can see that we live in a world of opposites, Bush says one thing and does another.
Sometimes the shades of gray are too subtle for average bystanders to notice but 2/3 of the public don't like W's stand on this and there's nowhere he can hide. Republicans control everything and they have lost touch entirely with reality on this. Smaller government doesn't mean keeping you alive against your will, even if there is no living will. Most people know this viscerally because they can put themselves in Terri's place.
But I digress. The short answer, LOL, is that I don't think there was any rush at all.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 07:58 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

I see you your points LK and they are valid. I'd see no rush to action either except that there have been questions about the facts as they had been presented. Were the Q's valid? we may never know. But, as you've stated Terri was in no pain and therefore not suffering. So why not take six more months and publicly define the facts from the fiction? We'll prolly not come to an accord on this. But that's cool. It intsructive to me to read your position. So many others, to whom I have spoken in person, are so blinded by passion for thier position, that real exchange is lost in the flying labels. Thanks for your time, friend.

If you have anything to add, I'd appreciate the perspective.

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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 08:20 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

The 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.�

Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

Dr. Lieberman concludes: “He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ‘incident’ that caused Terri’s collapse and her current condition.�

Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife’s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.

However, of all Michael’s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael’s excuse is to say that she wouldn’t want a standard burial because she “doesn’t like bugs.� I’m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide – like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? – and he doesn’t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.

So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.� Michael wants Terri cremated for a reason, no autopsy could be ordered once the investigation has started on him for abuse later on.

That’s exactly the way Michael Schiavo and the Florida judicial system want it.

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 08:27 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

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azimuth - 3/29/2005 7:58 PM

I see you your points LK and they are valid. I'd see no rush to action either except that there have been questions about the facts as they had been presented. Were the Q's valid? we may never know. But, as you've stated Terri was in no pain and therefore not suffering. So why not take six more months and publicly define the facts from the fiction? We'll prolly not come to an accord on this. But that's cool. It intsructive to me to read your position. So many others, to whom I have spoken in person, are so blinded by passion for thier position, that real exchange is lost in the flying labels. Thanks for your time, friend.

If you have anything to add, I'd appreciate the perspective.
I have nothing to add, so I will anyways.

"So why not take six more months and publicly define the facts from the fiction?"

I can answer that -- because this is a private matter that doesn't (shouldn't) concern the public. It's nobody's business beyond her doctors and her immediate family. We're only discussing this because the issue has been inappropriately publicized and sensationalized by her irresponsible parents. Frankly, it's sheer idiocy to be emotionally vested in a creature incapable of undrstanding or feeling those same emotions -- because she's even more brain-dead than them.

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 08:30 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

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S-KLASSE8 - 3/29/2005 8:20 PM

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.� Michael wants Terri cremated for a reason, no autopsy could be ordered once the investigation has started on him for abuse later on.
Michael Schiavo has already made arrangements for the execution of a full autopsy.

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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 08:46 PM
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

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GermanStar - 3/29/2005 10:30 PM

Quote:
S-KLASSE8 - 3/29/2005 8:20 PM

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.� Michael wants Terri cremated for a reason, no autopsy could be ordered once the investigation has started on him for abuse later on.
Michael Schiavo has already made arrangements for the execution of a full autopsy.
We'll see?

"I have spent MOST of the money I have made in my life on expensive women, expensive cars, and expensive drugs. The rest I just wasted." S-KLASSE8, "Belief in the supernatural, reflects a failure in the imagination." - Edward Abbey "Give me a firm place to stand, and I will move the Earth." - Archimedes - 1979 (fully restored) 450SLC - 1989 (fully restored)420SEL - "S CLASS STYLE - S CLASS ATTITUDE"
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Yet another Schiavo thread - hopefully the last

I have to assume that people didn't even look at the page I linked to in the first post.

Quote:
Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf.
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