Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'? - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 06:18 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
kerry edwards - 3/29/2005 8:55 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2005 4:44 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/29/2005 3:20 PM

Up to now, I was not interested in Hitler's stuggles as apparently illustrated in Mein Kampf. Now I'm curious but the disdain I have for his movement will most likely keep me disinterested....same goes for Mao's, Stalin's, Pol Pot's and Saddam's Kampf.

The posts on this thead and the opinions in them that I've read are revealing and educational though. I always appreciate the ideas I find here whether I agree with them or not.
It really is a misconception to think of the book as a description of Hitler's struggles. "Struggle" or "kampf" is a central concept of Nazi philosophy. The society is divided into groups that each has a "struggle" - the factory worker struggles against the monthly quota for steel while the factory struggles to meet the quota for guns. Labor organizations and military-industrial complex organizations are divided into "fronts". In other words, the model for society is perpetual war. Hitler's "kampf", as German leader, is the struggle for national supremecy and against Jewish/Communist world domination. He actually speaks very little of his own struggles. He present his "world view"- a definition of the struggles Germany faces (one totally freakin bizarre world view, for sure), and from this he defines the struggles for the nation, on down to the last man. It is obviously a pretty good model, because Texas is bigger than Germany, and I doubt Texas could give the rest of the world one hell of a world war. You got to hand it to the nasty bastard, he almost pulled it off.

Another interesting theory as to why he failed is in his view of women. Hitler refused to allow them to be factory workers until late in the war - he wanted little German baby factories being nice little homemakers. Their "struggle" was to produce soldiers for the Reich. If he had used them as skilled factory labor the way the Soviets did, he might have done better. But his real downfall was his own military stupidity in Russia. He took command away from some of the best generals that ever existed, and screwed himself royally.
A literal translation of 'Jihad' is 'struggle'. Draw your own conclusions.
But Jihad is personal struggle, or at least that's what the Koran says it is supposed to be. Kampf is social struggle - in fact that is what the "socialism" in National Socialism means, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Marxian economics.

In many ways, National Socialism is the political manifestation of Darwinism. It sees races as literally different and separate species, species which are struggling for evolutionary supremacy and are driving for the extinction of competing species. The Jews among them, the Slavs on their borders, all are driven by natural forces to bring about the extermination or pollution of the German Race. Since these drives are natural, and not political, in nature, the German Race must use naturalisitic, not political means to defend itself - and war is the natural state of mankind since he first struggled against the beasts of the night. While the philosophies of Jeffersonian Democracy and Marxian Communism attempt to appeal to our intellects, Nazism attempts to appeal to our most animalistic selves. That is the essence of Nazism. It is a philosophy for predators. In Mein Kampf, Hitler attempts to give these ideas a veneer of intellectualism, and in doing so he is attempting to put what is essentially a philosophy of institutionalized rape and murder on the same plane as Democracy and Communism.

The question is, how did the German people, a highly civilized people, get sucked into this? One has to look at their history - the Germans are one of the few continually existant societies in history to have remained in the same geographic location - they are in many ways a lot like the Chinese - they have been in the same area before the beginning of recorded history. As European society collapsed in the fall of Rome it was Germanic tribes that divided up Europe - the Franks, the Angles, the Saxons, etc. The Romans, Attila, the Mongols, the Turks: the Germans fended them all off, saving Europe for Christianity in the process. Their defeat in World War I came as a total and absolute shock to their national conscience, and caused a deep sense of shame in them - they had fallen short of their own historic ideals in a way that rocked them to the very core. Hitler's message resonated with them in a way it is hard for non-Germans to understand. It's not our fault we failed. The Jews did this to us.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 06:59 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
azimuth - 3/29/2005 9:18 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2005 4:44 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/29/2005 3:20 PM

Up to now, I was not interested in Hitler's stuggles as apparently illustrated in Mein Kampf. Now I'm curious but the disdain I have for his movement will most likely keep me disinterested....same goes for Mao's, Stalin's, Pol Pot's and Saddam's Kampf.

The posts on this thead and the opinions in them that I've read are revealing and educational though. I always appreciate the ideas I find here whether I agree with them or not.
It really is a misconception to think of the book as a description of Hitler's struggles. "Struggle" or "kampf" is a central concept of Nazi philosophy. The society is divided into groups that each has a "struggle" - the factory worker struggles against the monthly quota for steel while the factory struggles to meet the quota for guns. Labor organizations and military-industrial complex organizations are divided into "fronts". In other words, the model for society is perpetual war. Hitler's "kampf", as German leader, is the struggle for national supremecy and against Jewish/Communist world domination. He actually speaks very little of his own struggles. He present his "world view"- a definition of the struggles Germany faces (one totally freakin bizarre world view, for sure), and from this he defines the struggles for the nation, on down to the last man. It is obviously a pretty good model, because Texas is bigger than Germany, and I doubt Texas could give the rest of the world one hell of a world war. You got to hand it to the nasty bastard, he almost pulled it off.

Another interesting theory as to why he failed is in his view of women. Hitler refused to allow them to be factory workers until late in the war - he wanted little German baby factories being nice little homemakers. Their "struggle" was to produce soldiers for the Reich. If he had used them as skilled factory labor the way the Soviets did, he might have done better. But his real downfall was his own military stupidity in Russia. He took command away from some of the best generals that ever existed, and screwed himself royally.
Thanks for taking the time to answer or rather share your understanding of Hitler's work. I imagine if I read it I'd gleen some valuable insight relative to his movement and failures/successes. I just can't bring myself to plow through it yet.

You are right in this regard also. Though you don't literally portray it in words typed, the point is, there is wisdom in understanding the enemy of your fathers to help vanquish the enemies you face today. I believe the kind of evil that the Third Reich ultimatley embodied is ever present. Once conquered, it takes the form of another oppressive entity. I belive there is evil in this world. I believe there is righteousness in this world. Though you and I would follow a different track to get there, I think the latter is our mutual goal.

Party on....albeit smokeless, alcohol-less and drugless.[:D]

Fascism is always present. It is simply a philosophy that says that one group of human beings has a right to kill,rape, rob and enslave other human beings without benefit of due process of law. The original fascist state was the Roman Empire, and Hitler modeled his entire idea of government on it, the Fuhrer was nothing more than a new Roman Emperor. Even the Hitler salute was Roman. America has this in our own history. America was a quasi-fascist state until 1865, IMO, with half the population given the right to rape, murder and enslave other human beings for the purpose of economic benefit, without due process of law - it is it's own distinct economic system, distinct from capitalism, that goes back to the Romans. As long as the military and the government can guarantee a steady supply of slaves and rapine, the economy expands for the benefit of the ruling class. I personally see neo-conservativism and corporatism in today's world as simply modern manifestations of the same ideals.

A nation must be a nation of laws and not men, and fascism is a government of men, not of any morality based law. This is the central reason the American right wing's war on the judiciary branch of our governmental system is the beginning of fascism in the US and must be resisted tooth and nail by every freedom loving person in this country. The Nazis waged their own war in the same way on the German judiciary, replacing sound judges of the law with political hacks, the same thing our own right wing is attempting to do - it was one of the core events in the German nation's fall into Nazism. Many of these judges met their fate at Nuremburg. The reason the right wing needs this to happen is simple - the judiciary is the coercive branch of government, and at the same time the branch that protects society from coercion. The Congress can make all the fascist laws it wants, without conspiratorial judges, they can't be enforced and are thrown in the trash heap as the unconstitutional garbage that they are. In 1860, after years of pro-slavery presidents appointing fascist judges to the Federal bench, the Supreme Court declared the Fugitive Slave Act constitutional and attempted to force the Free States to enforce slavery within their jurisdictions, and enforce it for the economic benefit of our own little Nazis. In fact, the Dred Scott's majority opinion, written by the despicable Justice Taney, contains a sentence that is the essence of National Socialism: "A black man has no rights a white man is bound to respect." We all know what happened after that. Thank God it happened.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 03:47 AM
BenzWorld Veteran
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1982 300SD
Location: Bel AIr, MD
Posts: 692
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Regarding the cause(s) of Hitler's downfall....
I think KV is on the right track, blaming it on Hitler's military stupidity in Russia. I would go a step farther back. If you remember, in the early days of the war, Hitler went against the best military advice, and was sucessful. I believe those early, illogical sucesses drove him to dispsie conventional military wisdom. But those early sucesses were the result of his better reading of the political will of his adversaries. Later on, in a purely military struggle, conventional military wisdom prevailed. He was a victum of his own hubris.

Don't most societies contain the seeds of their own destruction?
MS Fowler is offline  
post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 04:21 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Six_wheeler's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2004
Vehicle: 1994 E320
Location: Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 1,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Six_wheeler
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
But his real downfall was his own military stupidity in Russia. He took command away from some of the best generals that ever existed, and screwed himself royally.
You almost sound like you feel sorry for him!
Six_wheeler is offline  
post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 04:46 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Six_wheeler's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2004
Vehicle: 1994 E320
Location: Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 1,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Six_wheeler
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
A literal translation of 'Jihad' is 'struggle'. Draw your own conclusions.
Hello Kerry and all,

This discussion interests me very much, and I value all of your opinions, and I found it very educational. Kerry, you are correct in the literal translation you gave of the word 'jihad.' But it's just that: purely literal. Kvining was only half-correct when he said that the Qoran's interpretation of struggle (through the use of the word jihad) as a personal one. Jihad may also be a group concept. For instance, when a Muslim group or nation is attacked, jihad (in this case, defensive war) for all stops being optional and becomes mandatory. But declaring war on others, whether individuals or nations, is by no means 'jihad.' On a personal level, the prophet Mohammed said: "The greatest jihad of all is a word of truth before a corrupt ruler." Bin Laden's self-declared 'jihad' is really nothing more than a sinister form militant politics that even Muslims themselves - which he claims to defend - have come to suffer from directly and indirectly. Many innocent, perfectly peaceful Muslims and non-Muslims were killed in the process of his slayings of 'the infidels.' Here in Saudi Arabia, we've covered several stories of attacks by militants in which all of the victims were Muslims! And then he and his group tried to justify their slaying with the feeble claim that they were 'in support of the infidels' or that 'they were in the way of our ultimate cause of killing the infidels, so they had to be eliminated.' But all this senselessness only served to further alienate Al-Qaeda and its extremely twisted and distorted moral doctrine.

Shady
Six_wheeler is offline  
post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 05:26 AM
BenzWorld Member
 
vanir's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2005
Vehicle: 1989 W201.029/M103 3.0
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Garage
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
In many ways, National Socialism is the political manifestation of Darwinism. It sees races as literally different and separate species, species which are struggling for evolutionary supremacy and are driving for the extinction of competing species.
Bzzzzt. Wrong answer, thankyou for playing.
Ultimately "Darwinism" is about evolutionary complexity.
However I understand the point you're trying to make, it's just misguided. Charles Darwin's brother pioneered Eugenics, which is about division of human species through intellect, described by anthropologists as "scientific racism."
Whilst in the vein of "Darwinism" (ie. evolution through species diversification and adaptation), it is recognized in modern times that all humans are 100% genetically compatable regardless of cultural or regional groupings, directly inferring a common ancestor of relatively small numbers and in a relatively isolated location, nevertheless a "neo-Eugenics" movement has been popularised in the US currently, by extreemist university students.

driving a fast car should feel like falling off a building.
vanir is offline  
post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2003
Vehicle: 300d, 409d
Location: Denver, CO USA
Posts: 440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
Six_wheeler - 3/31/2005 6:46 AM

Quote:
A literal translation of 'Jihad' is 'struggle'. Draw your own conclusions.
Hello Kerry and all,

This discussion interests me very much, and I value all of your opinions, and I found it very educational. Kerry, you are correct in the literal translation you gave of the word 'jihad.' But it's just that: purely literal. Kvining was only half-correct when he said that the Qoran's interpretation of struggle (through the use of the word jihad) as a personal one. Jihad may also be a group concept. For instance, when a Muslim group or nation is attacked, jihad (in this case, defensive war) for all stops being optional and becomes mandatory. But declaring war on others, whether individuals or nations, is by no means 'jihad.' On a personal level, the prophet Mohammed said: "The greatest jihad of all is a word of truth before a corrupt ruler." Bin Laden's self-declared 'jihad' is really nothing more than a sinister form militant politics that even Muslims themselves - which he claims to defend - have come to suffer from directly and indirectly. Many innocent, perfectly peaceful Muslims and non-Muslims were killed in the process of his slayings of 'the infidels.' Here in Saudi Arabia, we've covered several stories of attacks by militants in which all of the victims were Muslims! And then he and his group tried to justify their slaying with the feeble claim that they were 'in support of the infidels' or that 'they were in the way of our ultimate cause of killing the infidels, so they had to be eliminated.' But all this senselessness only served to further alienate Al-Qaeda and its extremely twisted and distorted moral doctrine.

Shady
Shady:
I agree with you, contra Kirk, that Jihad means more than just personal struggle. It can also mean defensive social and policitcal struggle, including war. I also believe, that just as Christianity used it's ideology to justify social and political expansion, Jihad has been used in a similar manner in the history of Islam, particularly in its early period of expansion.

I think it's very cool that we now have a Saudi resident participating in the discussion.

The movie 'Downfall' is a recent German production that opened in the US (with subtitles) about 3 weeks ago. It's about the last 10 or 12 days of Hitler's life in the bunker in Berlin.
kerry edwards is offline  
post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 09:53 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Six_wheeler's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2004
Vehicle: 1994 E320
Location: Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 1,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Six_wheeler
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

Quote:
Shady:
I agree with you, contra Kirk, that Jihad means more than just personal struggle. It can also mean defensive social and policitcal struggle, including war. I also believe, that just as Christianity used it's ideology to justify social and political expansion, Jihad has been used in a similar manner in the history of Islam, particularly in its early period of expansion.

I think it's very cool that we now have a Saudi resident participating in the discussion.

The movie 'Downfall' is a recent German production that opened in the US (with subtitles) about 3 weeks ago. It's about the last 10 or 12 days of Hitler's life in the bunker in Berlin.
Thank you Kerry and everyone else.
Perhaps I should tell you more about myself. I'm not a Saudi myself. I only live and work here (and, happy to say, about to marry a Saudi woman whom I love very much.) I come from Jordan, and I'm half-Syrian, half-Palestinian. And, as you might've guessed already, I'm a Muslim (but couldn't be further from being an extremist or a militant [:D].)
What you said above about Islam and Christianity is correct. But allow me to say two things.
First, any historical errors that were made by the people advocating a religion - any religion - by no means indicate a flaw with the religion itself. So I think we all should be wise enough not to condemn a religion, doctrine or idea based on the practices of its advocates.
Second, at the risk of sounding too defensive, I believe that the Islamic conquests happened in different circumstances and for different reasons than those under which Christian conquests took place. However inappropriate it may be, let me draw a comparison between the conquest of Jerusalem and the downfall of Islamic enclaves in 15th-century Spain. In the former, Omar, the third Caliph, made it specifically clear that no blood will be shed, that all Christians and Jews will be totally safe and retain their full rights, and no harm whatsoever will come to them, their property, their churches and synagogues. And so it was. This is akin to the protection the Arabian Jews enjoyed in the days of Mohammed, who even used to do business with them on a daily basis, with no grudge whatsoever involoved.
In Spain, however, countless Muslims were either killed or forced to renounce their religion under the threat of death.
As a mirror image, we all know that there are Christians, today and in the past, who left their own homes and traveled to the corners of the earth to help the poor, the injured and the plighted. And there were Muslims, like the Otomans, for instance, who persecuted non-turks in the Middle East, North Africa and virtually every other place they had under their control, all in the name of Islam.
What I want to say is that with every religion or doctrine, there are two faces of a coin, and either face is represented by the people who either respect or abuse that religion or doctrine. The Talibans and their allies Al-Qaeda abused religion to the extreme, and lives were lost because of their fanaticism. And we had to suffer because of that just like every single innocent American who died on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. The majority of the people who were killed in an attack on a residential compound in Riyadh in November 2003 were Muslims who came from other Arab as well as my own to make a living for their families, and they were involved in no war with anyone. The militant terrorists had become so laughably mediocre that they sent a message to the Saudi government saying that only those who have residence permits will be safe. This is how stupid some people are, but their particular stupidity has nothing to do with any of our great faiths, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Shady
Six_wheeler is offline  
post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 12:03 PM
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
Robschaef's Avatar
 
Date registered: Mar 2005
Vehicle: 1989 300 TE
Location: H Town
Posts: 460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kampf'?

It has been about 15 years since I read it. I do seem to remember that he felt it was because of the Jews weekness that the Germans lost WWI. I also assume that is had something to do with the haves and the have nots. He being the have not and other Jewish classmates being the haves. Doesn't really matter who. Envy will bring anyone down.

If you have any doubt how horrifing the Nazi's were, you need to visit a concentration camp in person and come out of the closet.
Robschaef is offline  
post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-31-2005, 12:12 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Anyone read 'Mein Kemp'?

Quote:
Six_wheeler - 3/31/2005 9:53 AM

However inappropriate it may be, let me draw a comparison between the conquest of Jerusalem and the downfall of Islamic enclaves in 15th-century Spain. In the former, Omar, the third Caliph, made it specifically clear that no blood will be shed, that all Christians and Jews will be totally safe and retain their full rights, and no harm whatsoever will come to them, their property, their churches and synagogues. And so it was. This is akin to the protection the Arabian Jews enjoyed in the days of Mohammed, who even used to do business with them on a daily basis, with no grudge whatsoever involoved.
In Spain, however, countless Muslims were either killed or forced to renounce their religion under the threat of death.
Shady
Muslims and Jews were both victimized by this edict, which coincidentally was proclaimed on this very date 513 years ago by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome