Stalinism and Nazism - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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Stalinism and Nazism

Food for thought. Does your stomach turn at the sight of the hammer and sickle as much as it does at the sight of a swastika?

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n06/zize01_.html

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 05:30 PM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

I have connection difficulties on the home network so I can't load most links people post.

But I can tell you the atrocities of Stalinism and Nazism are pretty well as bad as each other. One does it through the political system and human natures, the other has an identifiable bad guy and combines human natures to achieve pretty much the same thing, but more easily defined than...well any kind of marxism. It's more insidious, and you don't want to go saying China's just as evil as Hitler's Germany...

Let's just say Stalinism of the communist regimes leaves the doors open for "ethnic cleansing" about as much as Nazism of the fascist regimes left it open for outright genocide. It started in the 1920's as merely rehabilitating criminal behavior and general sociology (with rifle bullets and political concentration camps), however.
Most socialism is pretty much the same by ideal, it's an extreme, most importantly inherently superstitious and ridiculously bigoted. Funny thing is they diametrically think themselves precisely the opposite, as in fact being more well informed than information itself can achieve and quite benevolant. World leaders in wisdom.

Kind of like Republicans (hehe).

Pre-Stalinist Russia took to Marxism in the wake of strong Catholic roots, interestingly. That's what you get for culturally playing the devil's advocate...

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 09:44 PM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

The victors write the history. During and for many years after the War the image of the Hammer and Sickle was a symbol for freedom, liberation, and the destruction of the hated Nazi regime.



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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:22 AM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism


Note that the numbers in the table are thousand, you have to add three zeros to the end of the number. One million is represented in the chart as 1000. The count for the USSR is almost 62 million people killed.
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/wf.chap6.htm

Note also that the deaths in WWII from allied bombing of civilian population centers is not mentioned. It is a generally accepted fact that the allied generals would have been considered war criminals if they had not won the war.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:28 AM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

Darn, that's two different lists that failed to mention the USA. I'll bet that's a great dissappointment to people who look for every opportunity to find fault with us, isn't it?

But have faith! I look forward to some creative number-jacking. Like maybe the USA could have stopped Rwanda and so the USA should share in the guilt. You know that type of calculation.

B
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 12:19 PM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

Quote:
Botnst - 3/13/2005 11:28 AM

Darn, that's two different lists that failed to mention the USA. I'll bet that's a great disappointment to people who look for every opportunity to find fault with us, isn't it?

But have faith! I look forward to some creative number-jacking. Like maybe the USA could have stopped Rwanda and so the USA should share in the guilt. You know that type of calculation.

B
The numbers that I have seen related to the USA are for killing Native Americans and African slaves. Some of this would have been prior to 1776 and the formal recognition of the USA.

Some of the numbers I have seen for the estimates of slaves killed I think would exceed the total population of Africa at that time.

Between the diseases introduced and and the wars with Native Americans the estimated death toll climbed into the millions.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 01:07 PM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

Quote:
MetaPhysicalPajamas - 3/13/2005 3:19 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/13/2005 11:28 AM

Darn, that's two different lists that failed to mention the USA. I'll bet that's a great disappointment to people who look for every opportunity to find fault with us, isn't it?

But have faith! I look forward to some creative number-jacking. Like maybe the USA could have stopped Rwanda and so the USA should share in the guilt. You know that type of calculation.

B
The numbers that I have seen related to the USA are for killing Native Americans and African slaves. Some of this would have been prior to 1776 and the formal recognition of the USA.

Some of the numbers I have seen for the estimates of slaves killed I think would exceed the total population of Africa at that time.

Between the diseases introduced and and the wars with Native Americans the estimated death toll climbed into the millions.

under whose authority were we before 1776?

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

Always under the authority of the Christian God if I understand the history of political thought in Europe correctly. (or accept the word of Antonin Scalia)
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 03:08 PM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

Quote:
MetaPhysicalPajamas - 3/13/2005 3:19 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/13/2005 11:28 AM

Darn, that's two different lists that failed to mention the USA. I'll bet that's a great disappointment to people who look for every opportunity to find fault with us, isn't it?

But have faith! I look forward to some creative number-jacking. Like maybe the USA could have stopped Rwanda and so the USA should share in the guilt. You know that type of calculation.

B
The numbers that I have seen related to the USA are for killing Native Americans and African slaves. Some of this would have been prior to 1776 and the formal recognition of the USA.

Some of the numbers I have seen for the estimates of slaves killed I think would exceed the total population of Africa at that time.

Between the diseases introduced and and the wars with Native Americans the estimated death toll climbed into the millions.
I agree that holding the USA responsible for pre-USA deaths is not fair. Also, that the deaths on the "middle passage" are more myth than substance. But the slave deaths after arrival in the Caribbean are estimable. Once in the USA deaths were accounted for sometimes, but not consistently even within a county within a state. But back then, even deaths of white folks were not routinely counted by the government. Some of the best and most reliable records are from churches but they have to do with church members only. Its good to recall that much of the USA was still being pioneered. For example, in NOLA there were frequent epiddemics of cholera, malaria, and otehr diseases. Deaths of immigrants and ppor whites were not necessarily recorded as bodies were dumped in mass graves in the thousands.

The estimates on American Indian deaths during the westward expansion and annexation of the USA is full of difficulties. A population count of whitey at that time is nearly impossible. A population count of nations hostile to the USA is even less reliable.

So whenever I see some estimate of deaths, even in cities, I think "Oh yeah, plus or minus 100%".

B
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-14-2005, 05:01 AM
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RE: Stalinism and Nazism

If we distill things down to their most simple parts, we find at the heart of the Nazi, fascist, Red Fascist, American Jim Crow and Southern Confederacy a political philosophy that states that it is ok to deprive other human beings the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness under color of law. The Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment is what separates us as a nation from these bloodthirsty subhuman butchers - just look at our history, whenever they were ignored, we were as evil as Hitler.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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