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post #41 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 09:25 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

Pyrrhic victory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A "Pyrrhic victory" is a victory which is only achieved with heavy losses, such that the overall situation becomes worse for the Pyrrhic victor than it was before battle commenced. Usually the phrase refers to a battle, but by analogy it can also mean any struggle.

The phrase alludes to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, who defeated the Romans at Heraclea and Asculum in 279 BC, but with severe casualties of his own. Pyrrhus's famous statement "One more such victory and I am lost" led to the term "Pyrrhic victory" for any victory so costly as to be ruinous.

The French participation in World War I, or the British and Chinese participation in World War II could also be considered Pyrrhic victories. The gruesome French losses in WWI devastated French morale and could be considered to be one of the causes of the easy defeat of France in 1940. Britain was on the winning side in WWII, but was bankrupted and lost its extensive colonial empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
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post #42 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 07:58 PM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

Therein lies the dificulty. I view 2003 as the culmination of action begun in 1991. Just as confronting communism began at the end of WWII with Truman and didn't end until the the total collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the same with Saddam's Iraq.

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post #43 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-12-2005, 08:40 PM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

...uh huh, Iraq is the feather in the cap of a long march of failed US imperialist projects that created what the CIA calls "blowback", culminating in 9/11. Rather than addressing the roots and perps of 9/11, the highly elective decision to attack, invade and occupy the formerly sovereign nation of Iraq simply rubs salt in the wound, thus ensuring that past failures beget future folly and mayhem--you applaud the path and strategy of our own undoing.
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post #44 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 07:12 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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Zeitgeist - 3/12/2005 10:40 PM

...uh huh, Iraq is the feather in the cap of a long march of failed US imperialist projects that created what the CIA calls "blowback", culminating in 9/11. Rather than addressing the roots and perps of 9/11, the highly elective decision to attack, invade and occupy the formerly sovereign nation of Iraq simply rubs salt in the wound, thus ensuring that past failures beget future folly and mayhem--you applaud the path and strategy of our own undoing.
PSSSSSSTTT!!

The root cause of the problem is people living in a middle ages mind-set but with weapons of global reach. The fastest and best way to bring them into the 'age of enlightenment' is through democracy.

Look at what is going on in that neighborhood. Democracy on the march.

So in one hand we offer death and destruction to people who would threaten us. In the other we offer the uncertainty of self determination. They make their own choices.
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post #45 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:07 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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Botnst - 3/13/2005 7:12 AM

They make their own choices.
Yes, they can choose anything they want -- as long as we approve. I believe that's called "occupation" rather than "democracy". Do you see the subtle difference?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #46 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:30 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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GermanStar - 3/13/2005 10:07 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/13/2005 7:12 AM

They make their own choices.
Yes, they can choose anything they want -- as long as we approve. I believe that's called "occupation" rather than "democracy". Do you see the subtle difference?
Your characterization, unsurprisingly, differs from mine.

People do not choose despotism, it is forced on them. Given a choice, people choose freedom every time.

Therefore, supporting the notion that people choose enslavement by dictatorship is exactly analogous to old-time southern slaveowners pointing-out that when queestioned, slaves said their owners treated then kindley, suh. See, they like slavery. They're too ignorant to deal with the responsibilities of citizenship; they've always lived in slavery, it's their natural state; It takes a stern yet benevolent leader (master) to care for them; their whole culture has evolved into slavery; etc.

What would you call northern sympathizers of slave-owning southerners? The northerners themselves didn't own slaves....
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post #47 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:54 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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Botnst - 3/13/2005 8:30 AM

Therefore, supporting the notion that people choose enslavement by dictatorship is exactly analogous to old-time southern slaveowners pointing-out that when queestioned, slaves said their owners treated then kindley, suh. See, they like slavery. They're too ignorant to deal with the responsibilities of citizenship; they've always lived in slavery, it's their natural state; It takes a stern yet benevolent leader (master) to care for them; their whole culture has evolved into slavery; etc.

What would you call northern sympathizers of slave-owning southerners? The northerners themselves didn't own slaves....
Why support what you condemn? In this instance, we are the collective slave-owner, and the Iraqi people are the slaves. We encourage them to elect Iraqi liaisons to our government and call it democracy -- it ludicrous. Only when all outside influence is removed can this be called a democracy. Democracies, by definition, come from within, not without.

It may be said that we are attempting to set them on a path toward democracy, but that path is a far cry from the achievement of the goal -- a very far cry.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #48 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 08:58 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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Botnst - 3/13/2005 10:30 AM

The northerners themselves didn't own slaves....
/digression
Not that it changes your point but actually, yes northerners did own slaves. Importation of slaves was outlawed in the constitution of the confederacy. Slavery was outlawed by Lincoln in the South before it was outlawed in the North.
/end digression
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post #49 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 09:03 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

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GermanStar - 3/13/2005 10:54 AM

In this instance, we are the collective slave-owner, and the Iraqi people are the slaves. We encourage them to elect Iraqi liaisons to our government and call it democracy -- it ludicrous. Only when all outside influence is removed can this be called a democracy. Democracies, by definition, come from within, not without.
By the same argument citizens of the United States of America are also slaves.
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post #50 of 107 (permalink) Old 03-13-2005, 09:08 AM
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RE: Do you want the USA to police the world?

Quote:
GermanStar - 3/13/2005 10:54 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/13/2005 8:30 AM

Therefore, supporting the notion that people choose enslavement by dictatorship is exactly analogous to old-time southern slaveowners pointing-out that when queestioned, slaves said their owners treated then kindley, suh. See, they like slavery. They're too ignorant to deal with the responsibilities of citizenship; they've always lived in slavery, it's their natural state; It takes a stern yet benevolent leader (master) to care for them; their whole culture has evolved into slavery; etc.

What would you call northern sympathizers of slave-owning southerners? The northerners themselves didn't own slaves....
Why support what you condemn? In this instance, we are the collective slave-owner, and the Iraqi people are the slaves. We encourage them to elect Iraqi liaisons to our government and call it democracy -- it ludicrous. Only when all outside influence is removed can this be called a democracy. Democracies, by definition, come from within, not without.

It may be said that we are attempting to set them on a path toward democracy, but that path is a far cry from the achievement of the goal -- a very far cry.
Yes, Ron, I agree. The problem here is the tiny, tiny American attention span. A Hollywood starlet was once quoted as saying that "The only problem with instant gratification is that it takes too long." So with the Iraq story. Folks who saw all those ink-stained fingers after the Iraqi elections assume it's all over but the shouting. But of course the elections did not put an actual government in place--that is to happen sometime in December, if all goes well. Before that happens, antagonisms that go back decades must somehow be resolved. With 130,000 U.S. troops on the ground, we still hear of daily bombings and assassinations, all now pushed to the back pages of the newspaper. What would happen in the absence of those troops is all-out civil war.

At some point, as the economy at home tanks and as jobs continue to be out-sourced, the dim bulb of understanding may yet light up in the American consciousness, and they may grow weary of sending so much of our youth and treasure to this, our 51st state.

Joe B.
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