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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-02-2005, 08:09 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Then we have a fundamental and perhaps irreconcilable difference of opinion.

In my experience in dealing with people, from children to adult, poor to rich, if you give them the means to help themselves then people will help themselves. If you do things for people then they will not learn to help themselves and will become dependent upon your intervention.

For that reason, I do not think it is good to do things for people. On the contrary, I think it is a long-term detriment to do things for people. By doing things we create dependency.

OTOH, if we give people a choice and allow them to take the risk necessary for self-improvement, then they will learn to be self-reliant and not beholden to somebody else. For example, the worst thing that a parent can do for a child is to provide what he wants, without demanding that he earn it. This is the great error that rich people tend to perpetrate on their children more than poor people do (because rich folks have the means, not because poor folks have greater virtue). I'll bet we can all name rich people who couldn't make it in society without mummy and daddy's wealth. Start with Prince Charles and stop when you get tired. Is it because Charles is stump-stupid? I doubt it. He's probably somewhat above avg intelligence and thus capable of being President of the USA except for the birth thingy. But the man seems devoid of drive or initiative and good sense. Why?

I'll bet you could get an equally intelligent New Guinean and exchange him for Charles with the result of a dynamic, force in the royal family on one side and a weak, inconsequential hunter-gatherer on the other.

Hope I didn't offend any royalists or New Guineans out there.
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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-02-2005, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

I agree that people should help themselves. I desire no handouts. Period. We are in complete agreement here.
But where you think people have a "choice" for self advancement, I would like to change that "c" word to CHANCE. By giving them a chance we can assure them of a choice of lifestyles. Chance has to come before choice can be truly tried.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 05:45 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

It's just old racist crap. The "welfare chiselers" are just waiting around for handouts. Tell me, how does an orphan "help himself"? Or a person who is terminally ill and has no insurance? Or the mother of a large family who has no money for food for her children? Or a parapelgic? This generalized view of humanity you "libertarians" have allows you to fool yourselves into thinking you somehow have a solution for the vagaries of the human condition. Every one of you should volunteer a few hours a week of your time down at the local soup kitchen so you can see just who the hell it is who is on welfare.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 08:45 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
GermanStar - 3/1/2005 11:00 PM

The strong may defeat the weak, but the smart will defeat the strong. Almost like paper-rock-scissors...
yes, but who will defeat those of us who are both smart and strong?[8D]

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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 08:49 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
azimuth - 3/3/2005 8:45 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 3/1/2005 11:00 PM

The strong may defeat the weak, but the smart will defeat the strong. Almost like paper-rock-scissors...
yes, but who will defeat those of us who are both smart and strong?[8D]
Keep talkin' smart guy. We both know who can kick your behind! [:D] The meek shall inherit the earth my ass...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 01:31 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
kvining - 3/3/2005 7:45 AM

It's just old racist crap. The "welfare chiselers" are just waiting around for handouts. Tell me, how does an orphan "help himself"? Or a person who is terminally ill and has no insurance? Or the mother of a large family who has no money for food for her children? Or a parapelgic? This generalized view of humanity you "libertarians" have allows you to fool yourselves into thinking you somehow have a solution for the vagaries of the human condition. Every one of you should volunteer a few hours a week of your time down at the local soup kitchen so you can see just who the hell it is who is on welfare.
As usual, you raise excellent points.

Personally, I am an advocate that an individual should be responsible for his life. If he is of sound mind and body, I do not wish the government to help this individual get along in society.

However, your examples of the terminally ill or the paraplegic clearly fall under the condition "not of sound mind and body" and, therefore, meet the conditions needed, IMHO, for assistance by the government.

The situation with a mother with ten children is different, however. This person made a choice to have these children and should be responsible, to a large degree, to provide the proper support for them.
The current system does provide this support to a limited degree and you won't find any of these people starving in the streets, AFAIK. But, their lifestyle is certainly not what any of us would want for our own families, that is for sure.

The question begs to what economic equality does a person deserve in this society? I think we need to limit the discussion to those "of sound mind and body". Everyone else clearly deserves assistance in some shape or form.

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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 01:38 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
GermanStar - 3/3/2005 10:49 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/3/2005 8:45 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 3/1/2005 11:00 PM

The strong may defeat the weak, but the smart will defeat the strong. Almost like paper-rock-scissors...
yes, but who will defeat those of us who are both smart and strong?[8D]
Keep talkin' smart guy. We both know who can kick your behind! [:D] The meek shall inherit the earth my ass...

hahaha! yeah, which is why I won't post that off-color joke Mrs. Azimuth told me and won't allow me to share with ya'll[V]. I know when I'm licked.....as it were.[:D]

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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 05:49 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
Brian Carlton - 3/3/2005 3:31 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/3/2005 7:45 AM

It's just old racist crap. The "welfare chiselers" are just waiting around for handouts. Tell me, how does an orphan "help himself"? Or a person who is terminally ill and has no insurance? Or the mother of a large family who has no money for food for her children? Or a parapelgic? This generalized view of humanity you "libertarians" have allows you to fool yourselves into thinking you somehow have a solution for the vagaries of the human condition. Every one of you should volunteer a few hours a week of your time down at the local soup kitchen so you can see just who the hell it is who is on welfare.
As usual, you raise excellent points.

Personally, I am an advocate that an individual should be responsible for his life. If he is of sound mind and body, I do not wish the government to help this individual get along in society.

However, your examples of the terminally ill or the paraplegic clearly fall under the condition "not of sound mind and body" and, therefore, meet the conditions needed, IMHO, for assistance by the government.

The situation with a mother with ten children is different, however. This person made a choice to have these children and should be responsible, to a large degree, to provide the proper support for them.
The current system does provide this support to a limited degree and you won't find any of these people starving in the streets, AFAIK. But, their lifestyle is certainly not what any of us would want for our own families, that is for sure.

The question begs to what economic equality does a person deserve in this society? I think we need to limit the discussion to those "of sound mind and body". Everyone else clearly deserves assistance in some shape or form.
So you would let the children starve because their mother's a slut?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 07:16 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
kvining - 3/7/2005 7:49 AM

Quote:
Brian Carlton - 3/3/2005 3:31 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/3/2005 7:45 AM

It's just old racist crap. The "welfare chiselers" are just waiting around for handouts. Tell me, how does an orphan "help himself"? Or a person who is terminally ill and has no insurance? Or the mother of a large family who has no money for food for her children? Or a parapelgic? This generalized view of humanity you "libertarians" have allows you to fool yourselves into thinking you somehow have a solution for the vagaries of the human condition. Every one of you should volunteer a few hours a week of your time down at the local soup kitchen so you can see just who the hell it is who is on welfare.
As usual, you raise excellent points.

Personally, I am an advocate that an individual should be responsible for his life. If he is of sound mind and body, I do not wish the government to help this individual get along in society.

However, your examples of the terminally ill or the paraplegic clearly fall under the condition "not of sound mind and body" and, therefore, meet the conditions needed, IMHO, for assistance by the government.

The situation with a mother with ten children is different, however. This person made a choice to have these children and should be responsible, to a large degree, to provide the proper support for them.
The current system does provide this support to a limited degree and you won't find any of these people starving in the streets, AFAIK. But, their lifestyle is certainly not what any of us would want for our own families, that is for sure.

The question begs to what economic equality does a person deserve in this society? I think we need to limit the discussion to those "of sound mind and body". Everyone else clearly deserves assistance in some shape or form.
So you would let the children starve because their mother's a slut?
Read the aforementioned post. The current system does provide support to a limited degree and you won't find any of these people starving in the streets, AFAIK. There is support for these people under the current welfare system. It's just not sufficient to live a normal lifestyle.

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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 08:01 AM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

My point is really rather simple. The idea that people on welfare are able-bodied loafers is a myth. The reforms of the 90s pretty much put an end to the abuses of the welfare system. Those who are on it generally need to be on it. Most of the bashing of the current welfare system has a subtle racist component to it, and it seems to come mostly from Southerners who equate the word "welfare" with the words "black people". They need to get over their stereotype, and the quickest way I know how to do that is to do some volunteer work with the organizations who work with these people. Instead of some "welfare queen driving a Cadillac" they will find human misery on a scale they are unable to imagine from the perspective of their cushy jobs and comfortable homes. Welfare, now at bare subsistence levels, still pisses these selfish "conservatives" off, and they won't be happy until they are all forced into the streets to beg for their living.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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