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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 07:50 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

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Botnst - 3/1/2005 9:41 PM

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Brian Carlton - 3/1/2005 9:33 PM


First of all, this administration absolutely has an agenda when they propose privatizing social security. It was proposed by the administration and there is certainly a hidden agenda that would benefit someone that the administration favors. Do you really believe that the administration is proposing this scheme out of the goodness of their collective hearts? The congress would have no part of privatization without the push from the administration. This I can assure you.

Comparing myself to the average american citizen is not a good exercise. I'm not sure if you are aware of this Bot, but, the average american is a total moron. Given half a chance, I'm very sure that they would squander the funds that they put into the program, unless they were severely restricted into exactly which investments they could select. If this were the case, then I would not be opposed to it. But, to let Mr. Average American control tens of thousands of dollars of retirement money seems ridiculous.

As KV has mentioned, SSI is an insurance policy whereby payment is guaranteed. I do not see this happening with private investment.

It has nothing to do with poor folks or myself. It has to do with whether the individual has the knowledge to properly invest a large sum of money without putting it at great risk. As we have recently seen, people that are a whole lot smarter than I am ended up on the short end of the stick with stock investments. You think Mr. Average American will stand a snowballs chance in hell?

The reason not to afford them the same opportunity as Rockefeller is that they cannot afford the loss if the investment turns south. Simple as that.
I'm sure the administration has an agenda. That's their job. Be a damned shame to hire folsk who didn't. My point was that regardless of what the Prez says, Congress writes the law and accept the administration's suggestions, they do not take dictation. If you want to have influence on the deliberation then a note to your delegation is actually useful. Especially if you keep it short and succinct. They figure that if you take teh tiem to write a good letter that you probably influence a fair number of people. If you cut and paste an email campaign, they don't give a shit.

Your note that the average citizen is a moron is wonderfully elitist of you. Congratulations, you are now a member of the Illuminati and are naturally destined to rule the mindless fools beneath you. You can tell the idiots how to run their lives far better than those twits can run their own lives. It's awfully hard to get good help at the palace, isn't it?
You are a bit simplistic, don't you think? Of course Congress writes the law. However, the administration, with a strong majority, has a heavy influence on the laws passed. As you are well aware, it's the good old boy network. If I write a letter and the administration twists and arm, who do you think is going to come out on top?

I don't tell anyone how to run their lives. On the other hand, I don't sit here and make the statement that everybody in this land is a genius, either. My observation of the average individual tells me that they are just getting by in this world. In fact, the world is passing them by due to their lack of knowledge and the lack of processing power. Call it elitist, if you like. I can respond that you have your head in the sand, but I won't, because I think you are baiting me again.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 08:53 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

I'm only glad when I consider the history of mankind (war, cruelty, persecution, greed, war, war, some more war) that we are not dumb, otherwise heaven knows what might have happened.

[edit] And is happening.


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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 09:00 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

The strong may defeat the weak, but the smart will defeat the strong. Almost like paper-rock-scissors...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 09:24 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

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GermanStar - 3/1/2005 11:00 PM

The strong may defeat the weak, but the smart will defeat the strong. Almost like paper-rock-scissors...
All too true. Now who is "the smart". I make the statement that the insurgents are "the smart". And, if they continue as they are going, they will defeat the mighty by transforming the will of the population. Two or three more years of this shit and how many civilian Iraqis are going to stand up for the shrub and his "democracy"?

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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 09:40 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Yeah, which dumb person invented the nukular bomb?

I think it does a horrible disservice to democratic theory to assume that most people are incapable of self-government, much less decisions about their own lives. To remove from people the freedom to choose their own path, for good or ill, places them in the position of wards of the state, at best.

And whom should we place in charge of these stupid people? My party? Your party? My choice of gov, your choice?

Proletarians of the world unite! All you have to lose are your chains!

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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 09:44 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Back to the trees, I say. Devolution anyone?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-01-2005, 09:50 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
Botnst - 3/1/2005 11:40 PM

Yeah, which dumb person invented the nukular bomb?

I think it does a horrible disservice to democratic theory to assume that most people are incapable of self-government, much less decisions about their own lives. To remove from people the freedom to choose their own path, for good or ill, places them in the position of wards of the state, at best.

And whom should we place in charge of these stupid people? My party? Your party? My choice of gov, your choice?

Proletarians of the world unite! All you have to lose are your chains!
Stop baiting me.

It has nothing to do with stupidity and you know it.
When religious zealotry becomes the driving force behind the desires of a group of people, there is little chance for "democracy" as we know it.

If you think about it, all it would take is about 10,000 religious zealots in the U.S., with some organization and some serious weapons, and they could cripple this country with ease. This is especially true during these times when the press would be all over any incident with the "terrorist" label like flies all over shit.

You are not going to achieve democracy over there, IMHO. Period.

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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-02-2005, 06:44 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

If it appears that I am baiting you, don't take that which you perceive as bait. Let it pass.

As I understand what you said, you think that the majority of people are not smart enough to run their lives effectively. That being the case, then compassionate, intelligent people must care for those people who cannot care for themselves. Is that a fair characterization?

My response is that I assume that all men are created equal. I make no exception. Even a brainless microcephalic is still a human and deserving of human consideration. No more, no less. I do not believe in protected classes. I think that is exactly anathema to my first sentence. When we make politics out of exceptionalism, we create a society in which all people are equal but some are more equal than others. That is the first step to enslavement, whether from the right or left, I don't give a damn.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-02-2005, 07:16 PM
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
Botnst - 3/2/2005 8:44 PM

If it appears that I am baiting you, don't take that which you perceive as bait. Let it pass.

As I understand what you said, you think that the majority of people are not smart enough to run their lives effectively. That being the case, then compassionate, intelligent people must care for those people who cannot care for themselves. Is that a fair characterization?

My response is that I assume that all men are created equal. I make no exception. Even a brainless microcephalic is still a human and deserving of human consideration. No more, no less. I do not believe in protected classes. I think that is exactly anathema to my first sentence. When we make politics out of exceptionalism, we create a society in which all people are equal but some are more equal than others. That is the first step to enslavement, whether from the right or left, I don't give a damn.
The discussion in this thread, as I understand it, is whether or not there can be a successful democratic government in Iraq. We seem to be off on a tangent that concerns whether the people of the United States are smart enough to run their lives effectively. This can also be discussed, however, I believe it is current on a another thread.

My position on this thread has nothing to do with the intelligence of the Iraqi people. It simply states that the religious zealotry in this region will create insurgency that will cripple any attempt at democracy. I alluded to the fact that the democracy under which we currently live may be crippled in the same manner with a organized group of about 10,000 individuals with sufficient resources.

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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-02-2005, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Stop Beating around the Bush...

Quote:
Botnst - 3/2/2005 7:44 PM

If it appears that I am baiting you, don't take that which you perceive as bait. Let it pass.

As I understand what you said, you think that the majority of people are not smart enough to run their lives effectively. That being the case, then compassionate, intelligent people must care for those people who cannot care for themselves. Is that a fair characterization?

My response is that I assume that all men are created equal. I make no exception. Even a brainless microcephalic is still a human and deserving of human consideration. No more, no less. I do not believe in protected classes. I think that is exactly anathema to my first sentence. When we make politics out of exceptionalism, we create a society in which all people are equal but some are more equal than others. That is the first step to enslavement, whether from the right or left, I don't give a damn.
If you do not help the disadvantaged/poor/uneducated, like most of the world does not, then you end up living in a shit-hole third world country with no chance for the majority to make advances whether monetary or educational. You are correct in theory, but not in practice.
And quite simply I am not saying this because I like to give my money away. I say this out of selfishness, as I do not want to live in a third or second world country, where I need security 24/7 around me, or have to be driven through filthy slums just to get around town. Been there, done that.

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