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post #61 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 12:11 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

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Botnst - 2/17/2005 10:28 PM

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Willy Eckerslike - 2/17/2005 7:52 PM

Cheap labour is not a good thing (except to the one paying the wages of course).
Paying and charging for goods and services whatever the market will bear is a good thing.
Translation: Stabbing your fellow countrymen in the back for a buck is ok.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #62 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 07:31 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

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Willy Eckerslike - 2/18/2005 11:26 AM

But that is my point.

Everybody wants stuff for cheap.

Paying low wages means that people can't afford to buy home-produced goods. They have to buy cheap foreign made goods (we cannot compete with third world labour costs no matter how low the minimum wage).

We can't afford to manufacture anything anymore so we just sell services to each other.

That can't be sustained forever surely?

We need to make things and sell them to each other (and the rest of the world obviously). Give people a good wage and encourage them to buy home-made stuff.

This doesn't include Mercedes of course, we can still buy them whenever we want [:D]

Or am I being simple minded? It seems like common sense to me [?]

I don't agree with Gordon Gekko that greed is good. It's only good for the very greedy [V]
Greed is a moral and emotional response to money. I don't think free market principles are greed, I think people who take advantage of free markets for greedy purposes are immoral.

For example, if I decide to sell my car I beleive it is reasonable and good for me to ask the highest price I think I can get for it in a reasonable time.

If I decide to buy another car, I think it is reasonable that I try to pay as little as possible for the best car I can get.

IMO, greed would be evident if I misrepresented myself in either transaction, in order to increase the money in my posession. The immorality does not come from the transaction, it comes from my placing more value on money than honesty.
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post #63 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 07:38 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

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Botnst - 2/18/2005 7:31 PM

Greed is a moral and emotional response to money. I don't think free market principles are greed, I think people who take advantage of free markets for greedy purposes are immoral.

For example, if I decide to sell my car I beleive it is reasonable and good for me to ask the highest price I think I can get for it in a reasonable time.

If I decide to buy another car, I think it is reasonable that I try to pay as little as possible for the best car I can get.

IMO, greed would be evident if I misrepresented myself in either transaction, in order to increase the money in my posession. The immorality does not come from the transaction, it comes from my placing more value on money than honesty.
I guess it all depends on what you consider "greed". I'm with you here and I see no problem with the concept of greed as promoted by Gordon Gekko. He was simply promoting greed as the force that fuels capitalism -- no more, no less. If you aren't in accordance with the tenets of capitalism, I guess greed is bad.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #64 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:17 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

I read what you guys wrote, and I can see why conservative "Christian" principles are total hypocrisy.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #65 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:20 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

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kvining - 2/18/2005 10:17 PM

I read what you guys wrote, and I can see why conservative "Christian" principles are total hypocrisy.
Is this comment connected to anything in the reality plane?
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post #66 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:26 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

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kvining - 2/18/2005 8:17 PM

I read what you guys wrote, and I can see why conservative "Christian" principles are total hypocrisy.
You lost me there. Why are you introducing Christianity into the thread? Scratches head...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #67 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:38 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

Oh, I'm just contrasting the fact that conservatives claim they are practicing some philosophy based on "Christian values" to what is being said here by our two most well-known conservatives. I find it interesting they are being so frank in saying what many suspect, it is philosophy based on greed.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #68 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 08:46 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

OK -- well let's look at the other side of the coin. As a self-proclaimed liberal/leftie, do you, a successful small business owner, claim immunity from greed? If so, what motivates you to succeed?

BTW, any association with Christianity directed my way is about as far off course as you're likely to get.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #69 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-18-2005, 11:47 PM
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

This is an interesting puzzle that seems to be developing. Is one's pursuit of wealth always motivated by greed? Who gets to define when one has enough wealth? Why does he/she get to design that threshold?

Greed: execessive or reprehensible acquisitivness; see also avarice.

The definition assumes that there exists reasonable acquisitivness. Where does that leave us? Can I decide that KV or Bot has enough when I say and take the remainder for myself and others?

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post #70 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-19-2005, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
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RE: OK Now I'm pissed.

If this was a Prius or blood giving forum someone might be able to make the case that they aren't greedy.

MB = Excessive = GREEDY

If your self employed change the word greed to survival because it's the same damn thing. Some of us hold the survival bar a little different, some think an apartment is OK other's need 180 acres. What's the big deal?

If you are screwing people out of money you don't have to worry about God taking you out, your customers will.

And if you're into equality make sure you are paying yourself and every employee the exact same.

In other words paractice what you preach, I preach that most problems can be solved with money so go make money.
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