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post #71 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 03:50 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Azimuth,

The General's words come from a book published in 1985, which was less than a dozen years after the conflict "ended" with our retreat and long before the relations between the two countries normalized. There is no date attributed to the actual quote, and it may have been even earlier. There is also little context for the quote, which is mighty short considering the man wrote a whole book. I find the digging up of the enemy's general's words for a political campaign somewhat less than reliable. But, I see you don't.

Try this interview from 1996 with CNN. If Kerry had been the key to victory I think it would have come out in this interview. The main point he makes is that we fought the Vietnamese people without a clue who they were and made lots of mistakes because of that. He also makes it clear they were fighting on the side of their own freedom, against a foriegn invader, and that also made them sure they were right. They were threatened by us, not the other way around. Read the interview:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/interviews/giap/

Jim
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post #72 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 03:54 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
MTI - 2/10/2005 1:10 PM

After an embarassing loss in the last elections, doesn't it seem that the Democratic Party is dead in the water, or at least rudderless? Coming off a season of an inaugural, state of the union and the doom and gloom messages over social security, the best the Dems seem to be able to muster is Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi? Howard Dean is the unchallenged new boss of the DNC, how exciting. How many Dems are going to "just say no" to the President's funding request for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan? There needs to be some change before the midterms, otherwise the Dems are going to flounder into the next presidential cycle. Sigh.
Nothing wrong with the Democrats that isn't shared by the Republicans. Both parties place total emphasis on gaining and holding power, not on any discernably different principles.

Both sides dance with the truth like Ginger Rodgers danced with Fred Astaire--backwards, not knowing or caring where they're going and only seeing how they got there.
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post #73 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 04:09 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

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JimSmith - 2/13/2005 5:50 PM

Azimuth,

The General's words come from a book published in 1985, which was less than a dozen years after the conflict "ended" with our retreat and long before the relations between the two countries normalized. There is no date attributed to the actual quote, and it may have been even earlier. There is also little context for the quote, which is mighty short considering the man wrote a whole book. I find the digging up of the enemy's general's words for a political campaign somewhat less than reliable. But, I see you don't.

Try this interview from 1996 with CNN. If Kerry had been the key to victory I think it would have come out in this interview. The main point he makes is that we fought the Vietnamese people without a clue who they were and made lots of mistakes because of that. He also makes it clear they were fighting on the side of their own freedom, against a foriegn invader, and that also made them sure they were right. They were threatened by us, not the other way around. Read the interview:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/interviews/giap/

Jim
Jim, as much of you as I know, I respect. So please don't be offended. First you question my willingness to accept a man's statements and the credibility of such, and then you post a link of an interview he gave to prove a point you are making. that is illogical. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the of the doubt and assume you think that the general is a valid source for me and as such is the source for your arguement. Fine.

It is not my position that the reason we lost the war is because of the protestors lead by Mr. Kerry. We lost that war because we were unwilling to use our entire power. I still believe the general when he states that the unrest in the US created more dissruption than they could have ever hoped. It is my position that the division among the people weaken our posture and the will to use whatever it took to win. Therefore the increased the jeopardy in which our fighting men found themselves.

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post #74 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 04:25 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Azimuth,

You and I are not connecting on this one. I merely quoted another source with a different slant, to note you are depending on a politically motivated source for information and you should be a little suspicious of what the information is being used for, rather than swallow it whole. I think your website link uses the General's statements out of context, for political purposes. "My" website conducted an interview in 1996, when there was no heated political campaign with Swiftboat political activists slandering John Kerry, and his name never came up in the interview. A little further research and you can find that the General's actual quotes never mentioned John Kerry, they did mention Walter Cronkite though. I presume you resent Walter Cronkite as much as John Kerry? Is he a traitor too?

My point, like Kirk's earlier one, is the link you provided is so politically motivated it should be viewed as suspicous. Believe the frenzied Swiftboat spun version of history if you like. It is your right. But don't be shocked when others suggest it might be too frenzied to be a good foundation for basing a political outlook on, even if it is solidly anti-communist. Jim
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post #75 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 05:17 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

I understand your point now. thanks for your patience. I've noted the number of articles posted and thier political leanings on this forum before.

My position still stands. The opposition benefits from the division among our people.

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post #76 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 05:29 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

And, my position still stands, when we use force where we are not threatened directly, we have been shown to be unable to extract ourselves cleanly without dissent at home. Extraction is the key to supporting troops who have been sent somewhere to conduct a politically spawned military campaign that fractures the American spirit and cohesiveness of the people. The sooner the better. And protesting makes the politicians who spawned the poorly thought out campaign face their decisions. Silence begets more of the same. Jim
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post #77 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 05:32 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Perhaps if the Republicans did not wage a war by hijacking the people's armed forces, we would not be so divided. The War in Iraq is the first war in our history waged by a political party instead of a united country. The only thing that comes close is the Civil War, and even in that the Republicans and Northern Democrats were united. When a war is waged by a political party, there is going to be dissent. Look at Vietnam - a war waged essentially by the conservative wings of both parties - a friggin mess. How do we stay out of these quagmires? By going to war very, very reluctantly - with a clear purpose in the face of a clear danger.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #78 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 05:44 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/13/2005 7:29 PM

And, my position still stands, when we use force where we are not threatened directly, we have been shown to be unable to extract ourselves cleanly without dissent at home. Extraction is the key to supporting troops who have been sent somewhere to conduct a politically spawned military campaign that fractures the American spirit and cohesiveness of the people. The sooner the better. And protesting makes the politicians who spawned the poorly thought out campaign face their decisions. Silence begets more of the same. Jim
I am with you here Jim. If we are not all behind it I say stay out. However, when the result of our absence in the development of the world's political climate results in even stronger enemies than we face today, we must be willing to defend ourselves with everythingin our power. To puss around then would be suicide.

Is it possible that we can voice our opinions throught the ballot box therefore expressing our displeasure while maintaining the security of our military?

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post #79 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 06:19 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

It is the current administration that has chosen to place these people in harm's way, not their critics. They deserve both the criticism and the blame for fighting a war of choice. Suggesting that the expression of displeasure is anything other than exactly that seems unproductive and perhaps even unAmerican. The repercussions of that act if any, should also be placed at the feet of the current administration.

I notice you've gotten a hold of the Vietnam thang now -- well done! [:D]

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #80 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 06:35 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
Botnst - 2/13/2005 5:54 PM

Quote:
MTI - 2/10/2005 1:10 PM

After an embarassing loss in the last elections, doesn't it seem that the Democratic Party is dead in the water, or at least rudderless? Coming off a season of an inaugural, state of the union and the doom and gloom messages over social security, the best the Dems seem to be able to muster is Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi? Howard Dean is the unchallenged new boss of the DNC, how exciting. How many Dems are going to "just say no" to the President's funding request for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan? There needs to be some change before the midterms, otherwise the Dems are going to flounder into the next presidential cycle. Sigh.
Nothing wrong with the Democrats that isn't shared by the Republicans. Both parties place total emphasis on gaining and holding power, not on any discernably different principles.

Both sides dance with the truth like Ginger Rodgers danced with Fred Astaire--backwards, not knowing or caring where they're going and only seeing how they got there.
Oh yeah, the topic of the thread.

Maybe I'll go over to Coulter's site and see what she says.
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