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post #61 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 10:37 AM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

If it's a problem, then don't send them over there. Tools of the State sometime get missused and abused.

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post #62 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 10:54 AM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

The right to free speech is the most fundemantal human right. It is the very first right enumerated in the US Constitution. It is the most important right that differentiates democratic from totalitarian society. As far as I am concerned, anyone at any position in our society has a right to say what ever the hell they want, absent a few restrictions required to prevent espionage.

As far as I am concerned, the US military has been hijacked by fascists who now use it for immoral purposes, ignoring the actual enemies of this republic as they pursue the enemies of The Corporate State. I hope everyone shouts that from the rooftops, including the soldiers themselves.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #63 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 11:05 AM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

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Zeitgeist - 2/13/2005 12:37 PM

If it's a problem, then don't send them over there. Tools of the State sometime get missused and abused.


http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #64 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 01:06 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

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kvining - 2/13/2005 12:54 PM

The right to free speech is the most fundemantal human right. It is the very first right enumerated in the US Constitution. It is the most important right that differentiates democratic from totalitarian society. As far as I am concerned, anyone at any position in our society has a right to say what ever the hell they want, absent a few restrictions required to prevent espionage.

As far as I am concerned, the US military has been hijacked by fascists who now use it for immoral purposes, ignoring the actual enemies of this republic as they pursue the enemies of The Corporate State. I hope everyone shouts that from the rooftops, including the soldiers themselves.
nah, its the right to keep and bear arms. If you have a gun you can talk. If you don't have a gun, you have to have somebody else's permission.
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post #65 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 01:23 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
kvining - 2/13/2005 12:54 PM

The right to free speech is the most fundemantal human right. It is the very first right enumerated in the US Constitution. It is the most important right that differentiates democratic from totalitarian society. As far as I am concerned, anyone at any position in our society has a right to say what ever the hell they want, absent a few restrictions required to prevent espionage.

As far as I am concerned, the US military has been hijacked by fascists who now use it for immoral purposes, ignoring the actual enemies of this republic as they pursue the enemies of The Corporate State. I hope everyone shouts that from the rooftops, including the soldiers themselves.
Even you qualify the absolute right you are trumpeting. Restrictions are the wise exercise of self control for the greater good.

Again, and as clearly as I know how to say it, I am not advocating the abolition of any of our freedoms, merely the responsible exercise of same. Bot intoduces the second amendment to the thread so I'll use that. Would you say it is wise to discharge a weapon in densely populated areas as a practice simply because the right to have a weapon is recognized by the constitution?

Freedoms require responsibility. The practice of self control for the benefit of others is comendable and wise. I still think however that free will prevails.

As to the issue of what the military has been charged with doing in Iraq. Well, that is a matter of perspective.

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post #66 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 01:50 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Supporting the troops. How about we define that to mean that we place a high value on the job they do for us and their lives. High enough that we don't squander their lives or well being pursuing military activities that do not result in a more secure United States of America. And, how about when we do perceive we are threatened, we send them to do the job equipped and trained to properly do it, minimizing their casualties?

North or South Vietnam did nothing to threaten us, and when we left, nothing horrible happened to America. By definition when you lose a war and nothing bad happens to you the war was not about a threat to you. John Kerry and many others who protested the war contributed to ending it sooner and saving more American lives than any other course of action on the table at the time. They therefore supported the troops. Vietnam was a bipartisan error. The realization by the American people that it was an error, made clear by protesting in droves, made the political leadership take action to end the war that was not happening without the public outcry. No politicians voluntarily admit making such monumental errors, and in this case the errors were on both sides of the aisle, so there was no clear partisan dividing line. Without the protests we would still be killing people in Southeast Asia. And they would still be killing us. Instead we left and now we have pretty normal relations with Vietnam. the worst long term effect has been the piss poor care we gave the soldiers returning maimed physically and mentally.

Assuming protesting the war extends it is illogical. Assuming protesting the war brings about more American casualties is illogical. Blaming the troops for carrying out a vague set of policies that make no sense, and summed up make us look like murderers and prisoner abusers, is also illogical. Vietnam veterans came home to a public that was unjust in their condemnation of the soldiers for a failed and misguided political decision. That is another lasting wound we should not repeat.

Iraq is another such misguided mission based on errors of judgement or outright lies by our politicians, take your pick. Protesting the policy is not endangering the troops. If it brings them home an hour sooner, it saved lives and preserved their well being. Which should be viewed as really supporting the troops.

The people empowered to implement policies spawned by intensely poor judgement are the ones failing to support the troops. The people sending them into danger without proper training or equipment, the best we can give them, are not supporting the troops. Recall that we set the timetable for the Iraq (and Afghanistan) American responses. There was no urgency other than our own. Those who committed the troops without the equipment and training, without plans to address the likely outcomes, just don't warrant being allowed to make such decisions. And suggesting that pointing this out is somehow endangering the troops is just not logical. Jim
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post #67 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 01:57 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
azimuth - 2/13/2005 3:23 PM
Even you qualify the absolute right you are trumpeting. Restrictions are the wise exercise of self control for the greater good.

Again, and as clearly as I know how to say it, I am not advocating the abolition of any of our freedoms, merely the responsible exercise of same. Bot intoduces the second amendment to the thread so I'll use that. Would you say it is wise to discharge a weapon in densely populated areas as a practice simply because the right to have a weapon is recognized by the constitution?

Freedoms require responsibility. The practice of self control for the benefit of others is comendable and wise. I still think however that free will prevails.

As to the issue of what the military has been charged with doing in Iraq. Well, that is a matter of perspective.
Bad analogy Azimuth. Firing a gun in a crowded public area is not protected by the Second Ammendment, and in Connecticut at least, is going to get your gun taken away and possibly get you a stay in the local jail.

Yes exercising freedoms requires responsibility. One of those responsibilities is to exercise the freedom and push its limits to ensure it is really a freedom and not a bunch of hogwash. The case we are discussing here is not even near the limits of the freedom of speech. The topic here is fundamental to being an American. Open debate of everything on your mind. Or mine. Or Kirk's. Or MRTIKKET's.

Jim
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post #68 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 02:00 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

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JimSmith - 2/13/2005 3:50 PM



Assuming protesting the war extends it is illogical. Assuming protesting the war brings about more American casualties is illogical. Blaming the troops for carrying out a vague set of policies that make no sense, and summed up make us look like murderers and prisoner abusers, is also illogical. Vietnam veterans came home to a public that was unjust in their condemnation of the soldiers for a failed and misguided political decision. That is another lasting wound we should not repeat. Jim
I have assumed nothing. The basis for my statements are the very words of a vietcong general (link previously posted). He states that the unrest in the US relative to the vietnam war extended the war. Therefore, not illogical.

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post #69 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 02:32 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

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azimuth - 2/13/2005 4:00 PM
I have assumed nothing. The basis for my statements are the very words of a vietcong general (link previously posted). He states that the unrest in the US relative to the vietnam war extended the war. Therefore, not illogical.
Odd that you would put your trust in this man today to be telling you precisely what was going to happen then, under circumstances that never arose. Any minute during the conflict he would have been cited as a liar and denounced as a fountain of propaganda, and now he is the fountain of truth. Any clue what makes this ring so true for you? Sounds like taunting and manipulation to me.

Imagine we had "won" that particular offensive and that particular general's particular part of the North Vietnamese army had surrendered. Tell me what we would have gained, and how many lives would not have been lost in the intervening thirty to forty years. You seem to forget the Vietnam war was lost because the people of North and South Vietnam did not want us there any more than they wanted the French before us. It was not any major military conflict that did us in. Instead it was the persistent failure of the Vietnamese people to support our hired hands running their country our way that lead to the demise of Very easy to take a statement from someone that sounds like what you would like to believe, that we could have beaten the Vietnamese but for some pinko war protestors at home, ignore where it is coming from and spin it into an excuse for having lost that conflict.

It is remarkable how readily you accept the words from a man who was the enemy, and just as readily disregard the words of a man who was an American soldier. Your circuits seem to have been shorted on this issue as I usually find your approach at least distant enough to avoid making black and white issues that can be left grey. Is it your very visible hatred of Communism and the fact that this podunk, backward, commie country "won" this war? Jim
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post #70 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 03:32 PM
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RE: What's Really Wrong With the Democrats?

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/13/2005 4:32 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/13/2005 4:00 PM
I have assumed nothing. The basis for my statements are the very words of a vietcong general (link previously posted). He states that the unrest in the US relative to the vietnam war extended the war. Therefore, not illogical.
Odd that you would put your trust in this man today to be telling you precisely what was going to happen then, under circumstances that never arose. Any minute during the conflict he would have been cited as a liar and denounced as a fountain of propaganda, and now he is the fountain of truth. Any clue what makes this ring so true for you? Sounds like taunting and manipulation to me.

Imagine we had "won" that particular offensive and that particular general's particular part of the North Vietnamese army had surrendered. Tell me what we would have gained, and how many lives would not have been lost in the intervening thirty to forty years. You seem to forget the Vietnam war was lost because the people of North and South Vietnam did not want us there any more than they wanted the French before us. It was not any major military conflict that did us in. Instead it was the persistent failure of the Vietnamese people to support our hired hands running their country our way that lead to the demise of Very easy to take a statement from someone that sounds like what you would like to believe, that we could have beaten the Vietnamese but for some pinko war protestors at home, ignore where it is coming from and spin it into an excuse for having lost that conflict.

It is remarkable how readily you accept the words from a man who was the enemy, and just as readily disregard the words of a man who was an American soldier. Your circuits seem to have been shorted on this issue as I usually find your approach at least distant enough to avoid making black and white issues that can be left grey. Is it your very visible hatred of Communism and the fact that this podunk, backward, commie country "won" this war? Jim
It is precisely that the conflict has been over for thirty+ years and he has nothing to gain by lying about his perspective that adds credibility to his account.

I am not going to justify the vietnam war.

I would rather accept the words of a loyal soldier. Benedict Arnold was an American soldier too....til he became a traitor. I think what Mr. Kerry did when he came home was despicable. Even the vietcong general was loyal to his country.

your conclusions about me and my opinion are misguided.

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