Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice? - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #31 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:22 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

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Zeitgeist - 2/4/2005 10:13 PM

Handmaiden is so effete, I prefer the phrase apologist for the swarthy menace.
Interjection of racial overtone.

Why?
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post #32 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

...hmmm, cuz US imperialism and racial overtones go hand in hand? Do you deny that many of the jingoists supporting this "war" have employed grotesque racial and religious stereotypes? Since I oppose US imperialism (i.e. I'm with the terrorists), I must therefore support the swarthy menace from abroad in all his heinous iterations. Remember the disgraceful propaganda posters from WWI and WWII? Need I say more?

Note: I'm not accusing you of race-baiting per se, but a fair number of your fellow right-wing war-mongers are a pretty hateful lot. 911 acted like a pandora's box for lots of pent up vitriol and racist aggression.
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post #33 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:08 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

Back to the original Q... I really find it hard to believe that the US would allow the international prosecution of Sec. Rumsfeld. Which nation of the world could be successful at prosecution let alone fulfillment of sentence in this case?

I'm not surprised to see action being brought, especially any action which originates in the US itself where the political gain is to be had. I believe this action is more about that than any justice for crimes against humanity.

I believe the prosecution would have to prove intent to target and kill innocent civilians with prejudice. I don't see where that can be done. Sure the case for that can be argued. I simply don't see it as being successful.

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post #34 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:10 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 2/5/2005 12:05 AM

...hmmm, cuz US imperialism and racial overtones go hand in hand? Do you deny that many of the jingoists supporting this "war" have employed grotesque racial and religious stereotypes? Since I oppose US imperialism (i.e. I'm with the terrorists), I must therefore support the swarthy menace from abroad in all his heinous iterations. Remember the disgraceful propaganda posters from WWI and WWII? Need I say more?

Note: I'm not accusing you of race-baiting per se, but a fair number of your fellow right-wing war-mongers are a pretty hateful lot. 911 acted like a pandora's box for lots of pent up vitriol and racist aggression.
That is exactly race baiting, per se.
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post #35 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:22 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

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Botnst - 2/4/2005 7:55 PM

Stripped bare of moralisms, we may stand in judgement on this premise alone: Our self-interest. We can make it stand because we have the power and will to enforce it.
I submit that it would be in our self-interest to kill everyone. If there's less of them, there's more for us. What the hell are we waiting for?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #36 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:35 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/5/2005 12:22 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/4/2005 7:55 PM

Stripped bare of moralisms, we may stand in judgement on this premise alone: Our self-interest. We can make it stand because we have the power and will to enforce it.
I submit that it would be in our self-interest to kill everyone. If there's less of them, there's more for us. What the hell are we waiting for?
Would you now? Wouldn't you agree that the strategy ought to match the outcome? As I understand it, the strategic goal of the coalition is to foment democracy among the arab states beginning with Iraq--the easiest target. It is extremely difficult to have a democracy absent a population. So the strategy is not one of annhilation but of stability to foster democracy.

Thus tactically we'll kill as many of the enemy as necessary to povide security necessary for a legitimate vote. Guess what: That's been achieved. Would you not agree that self determination by open, free, and fair election in which 60% of the populace participated is legitimate?

If it was legit and we were the purveyors and guarantors of the election, then that means we have achived two successes: despoing that barking-mad bastard, Saddam Hussein and also the establishment of the framework for a legitimate representative democracy.

Wont you join me in saying that a representative democracy emerging from a state that has for 40 years, known little more than rape, torture, cultic leader-worship, and mass murder IS A GOOD THING?
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post #37 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:40 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

Quote:
azimuth - 2/5/2005 12:08 AM

Back to the original Q... I really find it hard to believe that the US would allow the international prosecution of Sec. Rumsfeld. Which nation of the world could be successful at prosecution let alone fulfillment of sentence in this case?

I'm not surprised to see action being brought, especially any action which originates in the US itself where the political gain is to be had. I believe this action is more about that than any justice for crimes against humanity.

I believe the prosecution would have to prove intent to target and kill innocent civilians with prejudice. I don't see where that can be done. Sure the case for that can be argued. I simply don't see it as being successful.
Why should we expect different treatment than say Serbia? What is to stop the rest of the world from imposing an economic embargo on us if we refuse to hand Rumsfeld over to the International Court of Justice? I think that we are heading for that situation - we think we are invincible, yet we have an economy walking a tightrope. An embargo of oil and strategic metals will bring us and our little fascist war machine to a halt.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #38 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:43 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

Quote:
Botnst - 2/5/2005 12:35 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/5/2005 12:22 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/4/2005 7:55 PM

Stripped bare of moralisms, we may stand in judgement on this premise alone: Our self-interest. We can make it stand because we have the power and will to enforce it.
I submit that it would be in our self-interest to kill everyone. If there's less of them, there's more for us. What the hell are we waiting for?
Would you now? Wouldn't you agree that the strategy ought to match the outcome? As I understand it, the strategic goal of the coalition is to foment democracy among the arab states beginning with Iraq--the easiest target. It is extremely difficult to have a democracy absent a population. So the strategy is not one of annhilation but of stability to foster democracy.

Thus tactically we'll kill as many of the enemy as necessary to povide security necessary for a legitimate vote. Guess what: That's been achieved. Would you not agree that self determination by open, free, and fair election in which 60% of the populace participated is legitimate?

If it was legit and we were the purveyors and guarantors of the election, then that means we have achived two successes: despoing that barking-mad bastard, Saddam Hussein and also the establishment of the framework for a legitimate representative democracy.

Wont you join me in saying that a representative democracy emerging from a state that has for 40 years, known little more than rape, torture, cultic leader-worship, and mass murder IS A GOOD THING?
I certainly don't see it as legitimate. We banned one of the most popular political parties. Our tactics of mass murder resulted in one of the major factions staying home. The results of the election now appear to be a landslide for one particular ethnic group - something that has been a recipe for disaster in iraq since it was founded. As far as our own interests go, the party we have put in power is allied to our worst enemy - the Iranians, not exactly a superb beacon of strategic success.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #39 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

For some reason that makes me think of the sadistic hedonism embodied by Dennis Hopper's character Frank Booth in the movie Blue Velvet.

Frank: "I'll send you a love letter! Straight from my heart, f@*ker! You know what a love letter is? It's a bullet from a f@*king gun, f@*ker! You receive a love letter from me, you're f@*ked forever! You understand, f@*k? I'll send you straight to hell, f@*ker!"

Ben: "Here's to your health, Frank."
Frank: "Don't drink to my health, drink to my f@*k!"

Frank: "What kind of beer you drink, neighbor?"
Jeffrey: "Heineken."
Frank: "Heineken? F@*k that $h!t! Pabst Blue Ribbon!"

Frank: "I'll f@*k anything that moooooves!"
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post #40 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:46 PM
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RE: Will Rummy have a rendezvous with justice?

When was the last time we in the USA had a national election in which 60% of the voters, voted?
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