WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis - Page 10 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #91 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:07 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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Botnst - 2/4/2005 10:56 PM

Az, as I understand it, it's like this. We can have a war as long as we suffer no losses. If one of our brothers, sisters, or kids dies, no matter the cause, no matter the risk, we have lost the moral high ground and thus, we have lost the war.

This method does not consider anything but bloody meat as the valuation of risk and reward.

B
I guess you answered the next Q i had chambered. Is it ever the moral high ground to sacrifice some lives for the salvation of others in greater numbers? Were the answer to have been "no", then the Q would have been, when did that become the case?

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post #92 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:07 PM

I guess you answered the next Q i had chambered. Is it ever the moral high ground to sacrifice some lives for the salvation of others in greater numbers? Were the answer to have been "no", then the Q would have been, when did that become the case?
We are fully responsible for our behavior. We are not responsible for the behavior of others.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #93 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:19 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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GermanStar - 2/4/2005 11:12 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:07 PM

I guess you answered the next Q i had chambered. Is it ever the moral high ground to sacrifice some lives for the salvation of others in greater numbers? Were the answer to have been "no", then the Q would have been, when did that become the case?
We are fully responsible for our behavior. We are not responsible for the behavior of others.
On that we agree.
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post #94 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:39 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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GermanStar - 2/4/2005 11:12 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:07 PM

I guess you answered the next Q i had chambered. Is it ever the moral high ground to sacrifice some lives for the salvation of others in greater numbers? Were the answer to have been "no", then the Q would have been, when did that become the case?
We are fully responsible for our behavior. We are not responsible for the behavior of others.
Then, is it ever the moral high ground to give your life and/or ask others to voluntarily give thier lives for the salvation of others?

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post #95 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:39 PM

Then, is it ever the moral high ground to give your life and/or ask others to voluntarily give thier lives for the salvation of others?
It could be the moral high ground to offer your life -- it would obviously depend on circumstances. This condescending little excursion of yours has precious little to do with the blood of 100,000 dead Iraqis on the hands of our government. Let's not forget -- these folks were doing nothing more than minding their own business, which wasn't or shouldn't have been our business.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #96 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 09:54 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/4/2005 11:47 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:39 PM

Then, is it ever the moral high ground to give your life and/or ask others to voluntarily give thier lives for the salvation of others?
It could be the moral high ground to offer your life -- it would obviously depend on circumstances. This condescending little excursion of yours has precious little to do with the blood of 100,000 dead Iraqis on the hands of our government. Let's not forget -- these folks were doing nothing more than minding their own business, which wasn't or shouldn't have been our business.
It is not possible for one of my position to condescend. I noted a statement of apparent priciple which was used to fortify a position. I thought it wise to ask for clarification. If the stated priciple is flawed and the fortification is weak, then the position must be reinforced in an alternative fashion.

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post #97 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:02 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

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Botnst - 2/4/2005 10:56 PM

Az, as I understand it, it's like this. We can have a war as long as we suffer no losses. If one of our brothers, sisters, or kids dies, no matter the cause, no matter the risk, we have lost the moral high ground and thus, we have lost the war.

This method does not consider anything but bloody meat as the valuation of risk and reward.

B
I think that is the best mischaracterization of the opposition's position I've heard since the last time I listened to Rush Limbaugh.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #98 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:11 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/4/2005 11:47 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:39 PM

Then, is it ever the moral high ground to give your life and/or ask others to voluntarily give thier lives for the salvation of others?
It could be the moral high ground to offer your life -- it would obviously depend on circumstances. This condescending little excursion of yours has precious little to do with the blood of 100,000 dead Iraqis on the hands of our government. Let's not forget -- these folks were doing nothing more than minding their own business, which wasn't or shouldn't have been our business.
It is moral to give one's life for the salvation of one's own country. Having to give one's life is an act of DEFENSE of one's own country. Being ordered to go about the world to die for what you are being told is in the interest of another country when no clear and present to one's own country is apparent is immoral.

It is up to those who live under tyranny to rise up and fight it. Like I asked Bot - where was the anti-Saddam insurgency before we arrived in Iraq? We now know that one could have operated in Iraq, even in the most stringent police state environment. Where were the Iraqis that were supposed to great us as liberators? The absence of both shows a population that assented to it's leadership. Did the Iraqis ask us to come die for them? No, this was our idea. There are no lofty principles here, only fakery.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #99 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:14 PM
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

I am reminded of Sophocles' conundrum expressed through the artifice of his play, "Antigone." Sometimes there is no optimal solution.
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post #100 of 153 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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RE: WTF?: Prof Won't Back Down On Comparing WTC Victims To Nazis

Quote:
azimuth - 2/4/2005 9:54 PM

It is not possible for one of my position to condescend. I noted a statement of apparent priciple which was used to fortify a position. I thought it wise to ask for clarification. If the stated priciple is flawed and the fortification is weak, then the position must be reinforced in an alternative fashion.
There were more than sixty words in my response. You chose to focus on one particular word rather than address the issue. The issue is the slaughter of 100,000 people who were essentially minding their own affairs and trying to live their lives for the same reasons we live ours. You seem to be expounding a position of righteousness in regard to this wanton loss of life at the hands of our government, but I am not entirely certain. If you have a point to make, please make it in a single post, rather than presenting a series of specific hoops to jump through one at a time in order to lead to an obvious conclusion three hoops down the road (I assure you, I am not a poodle). It is your method, not your message that I occasionally find condescending.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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