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post #51 of 72 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 10:50 PM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

[QUOT]

Are you aware the US refuses to release civilian casaulty figures? I wonder why.[/QUOTE]

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
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The worldwide update of reported civilian deaths in the Iraq war and occupation.



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post #52 of 72 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 10:56 PM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

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guage - 2/1/2005 12:50 AM

[QUOT]

Are you aware the US refuses to release civilian casaulty figures? I wonder why.
Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
15600 17830
View Database...



www.iraqbodycount.org


The worldwide update of reported civilian deaths in the Iraq war and occupation.



[/QUOTE]

Educate yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4079059.stm


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #53 of 72 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 11:17 PM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections



[/QUOTE]

Educate yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4079059.stm

[/QUOTE]
Hey thanks looks to backup my link.
Now show me the link with the 1oo,oo

Once again one repoters opinion
post #54 of 72 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 11:19 PM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

If nothing else, you gotta admire the human spirit even with the threat of death
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post #55 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 07:04 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

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azimuth - 2/1/2005 1:19 AM

If nothing else, you gotta admire the human spirit even with the threat of death
Beautiful picture. Woman giving the finger to people who don't believe Arabs can or should become democracies.
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post #56 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 07:29 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

I thought she was a Turkish tobacco farmer giving the finger to those who would legislate against tobacco use...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #57 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 07:49 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

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Botnst - 2/1/2005 9:04 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 2/1/2005 1:19 AM

If nothing else, you gotta admire the human spirit even with the threat of death
Beautiful picture. Woman giving the finger to people who don't believe Arabs can or should become democracies.
When has that ever been the argument? The argument is simple - does Iraq work as a country? So far, under dictatorships or democracy, it requires the point of a gun to be a nation. The proof here will be in the pudding.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #58 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 07:55 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections


Elections Are Not Democracy
The United States has essentially stopped trying to build a democratic order in Iraq, and is simply trying to gain stability and legitimacyBy Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek

Feb. 7 issue - By the time you read this, you will know how the elections in Iraq have gone. No matter what the violence, the elections are an important step forward, for Iraq and for the Middle East. But it is also true, alas, that no matter how the voting turns out, the prospects for genuine democracy in Iraq are increasingly grim. Unless there is a major change in course, Iraq is on track to become another corrupt, oil-rich quasi-democracy, like Russia and Nigeria.


In April 2003, around the time Baghdad fell, I published a book that described the path to liberal democracy. In it, I pointed out that there had been elections in several countries around the world—most prominently Russia—that put governments in place that then abused their authority and undermined basic human rights. I called such regimes illiberal democracies. In NEWSWEEK that month, I outlined the three conditions Iraq had to fulfill to avoid this fate. It is currently doing badly at all three.

First, you need to avoid major ethnic or religious strife. In almost any "divided" society, elections can exacerbate group tensions unless there is a strong effort to make a deal between the groups, getting all to buy into the new order. "The one precondition for democracy to work is a consensus among major ethnic, regional, or religious groups," says Larry Diamond, one of the leading experts on democratization. This has not happened. Instead the Shia, Sunnis and Kurds are increasingly wary of one another and are thinking along purely sectarian lines. This "groupism" also overemphasizes the religious voices in these communities, and gives rise to a less secular, less liberal kind of politics.

Second, create a non-oil-based economy and government. When a government has easy access to money, it doesn't need to create a real economy. In fact, it doesn't need its citizens because it doesn't tax them. The result is a royal court, distant and detached from its society.

Iraq's oil revenues were supposed to be managed well, going into a specially earmarked development fund rather than used to finance general government activities. The Coalition Provisional Authority steered this process reasonably well, though its auditors gave it a less-than-glowing review. Since the transfer of power to the Iraqi provisional government, Iraq's oil revenues have been managed in an opaque manner, with scarce information. "There is little doubt that Iraq is now using its oil wealth for general revenues," says Isam al Khafaji, who worked for the CPA briefly and now runs Iraq Revenue Watch for the Open Society Institute. "Plus, the Iraqi government now has two sources of easy money. If the oil revenues aren't enough, there's Uncle Sam. The United States is spending its money extremely unwisely in Iraq."

This is a complaint one hears over and over again. America is spending billions of dollars in Iraq and getting very little for it in terms of improvements on the ground, let alone the good will of the people. "Most of the money is being spent for reasons of political patronage, not creating the basis for a real economy," says al Khafaji. Most of it is spent on Americans, no matter what the cost. The rest goes to favored Iraqis. "We have studied this and I can say with certainty that not a single Iraqi contractor has received his contract through a bidding process that was open and transparent."

The rule of law is the final, crucial condition. Without it, little else can work. Paul Bremer did an extremely good job building institutional safeguards for the new Iraq, creating a public-integrity commission, an election commission, a human-rights commission, inspectors general in each bureaucratic government department. Some of these have survived, but most have been shelved, corrupted, or marginalized. The courts are in better shape but could well follow the same sad fate of these other building blocks of liberal democracy. Iraq's police are routinely accused of torture and abuse of authority.

U.S. forces went into Iraq with no coherent strategy to run an occupied country—or defeat an insurgency.

Much of the reason for this decline is, of course, the security situation. The United States has essentially stopped trying to build a democratic order in Iraq and is simply trying to fight the insurgency and gain some stability and legitimacy. In doing so, if that exacerbates group tensions, corruption, cronyism, and creates an overly centralized regime, so be it. Lawrence Kaplan, a neoconservative writer passionately in favor of the war, who coauthored "The War Over Iraq: Saddam's Tyranny and America's Mission" with William Kristol, has just returned from Iraq and written a deeply gloomy essay in the current The New Republic. His conclusion: "The war for a liberal Iraq is destroying the dream of a liberal Iraq."

Iraq will still be a country that is substantially better off than it was under Saddam Hussein. There is real pluralism and openness in the society—more so than in most of the Middle East. Russia and Nigeria aren't terrible regimes. But it was not what many of us had hoped for. Perhaps some of these negative trends can be reversed. Perhaps the Shia majority will use their power wisely. But Iraqi democracy is now at the mercy of that majority, who we must hope will listen to their better angels. That is not a sign of success. "If men were angels," James Madison once wrote, "no government would be necessary."

© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #59 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 08:15 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

Quote:
kvining - 1/31/2005 11:49 PM

Quote:
jamminjames - 2/1/2005 12:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 1/31/2005 10:43 PM

Quote:
kvining - 1/31/2005 6:37 PM

Actually, my nephew just came back this week, and he has been telling me how right I am.
How can that be? Just before the Nov elections you said he was just entering flyboy boot camp.

It was nine weeks of basic for me, then on to special training.
That goes along with him saying last October that he was a member of a union, and just the other day he said he left the union in the late 90s. Hmmmmm.

Twist 'till it fits...
I get a little sick of you calling me a liar. If you have a point to make, post the thread where you think I asserted something that is not true, because you seem to be making up shit to make me look like a liar of some sort. If you can't do that, why don't you go fuck yourself?
First, I'll take your advice and might try it...
This is where I wonder what's going on...
******
Quote:
kvining - 9/18/2004 2:26 AM
I think its a crap shoot. I work as a statistician
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/foru...start=1&fid=46
******
Quote:
kvining - 10/24/2004 10:07 AM
I've been invovlved with or been a member of unions my whole life. You are smoking crack.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/foru...tart=31&fid=46
******
Quote:
kvining - 1/28/2005 8:07 PM
I own my own business, I have since 1998. Prior to that I worked as a computer programmer, the same field my business is involved in. Prior to that, I was a union ironworker, a job that allowed me to put myself thru college.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/foru...tart=31&fid=46
******

Now, that's the last time I'm saying anything about your work history. I just realized I wasted 30 minutes of my life looking this stuff up - that I'll never get back. You're simply not worth it. And I would love to retort in the same manner that you did with the profanities, but I'm better than that.

Consider it case closed. I have. MoveOn...

Have a nice day. [:D]

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post #60 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-01-2005, 11:01 AM
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RE: Worlds leaders PRAISE Iraqi elections

What's your problem with me being in a labor union? Did you wash out of an apprenticeship somewhere? They wouldn't let you join because you failed the drug test? Where is this jealously coming from?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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