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post #21 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 10:10 PM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

Pay taxes? They don't pay no stinkin' taxes! How do you figgur?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #22 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 10:22 PM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/28/2005 12:10 AM

Pay taxes? They don't pay no stinkin' taxes! How do you figgur?
If at the very least they make a purchase, they pay taxes.

If they get a fake Id and a regular job then they pay SSI into a non-existent account from which they will not withdraw a penny.

They will also pay payroll taxes.

Many of them work their a$$es off and send every dime they can spare back to Mex to support an extended family.

And yeah, we have lots of Mexicans here, too though they're practically invisible.

I completely agree its a problem, but I don't know of a plan that anybody has proposed that is fair and provides labor opportunities for employers and laborers but doesn't grant them legal status.

Heck, we could seal the border and shoot the poor bastards as they come across or gas'em in concentration camps. Or we can drop the pretence and call Mexico the 51st state. I suspect that most rational citizens of the USA would reject those alternatives. Somewhere in between is a moving target as slippery as Marvel Mystery Oil.
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post #23 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:24 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

“60 Minutes� was down here a while back – I guess the episode will air on the Wed nite version. They’ll show the pressure on our local hospital treating the ones suffering from exposure and I don’t know what else. I see so much money wasted on this problem. Because of all the Border Patrol it’s almost like a military state, but they do no good whatsoever. They pick up the walkers, but they get to know them – it’ll be the same people again and again. Right now there’s a vigilante fest or something going on – literally hundreds of armed old mal-adjusted farts are walking around trying to play cowboy. Most of the people that this sort of activity appeals too need to get a life – a real life. Somebody’s going to get hurt. They’re not from around here; some full time snowbird from Tombstone started the whole deal. The entire law enforcement effort uses the illegals' as a cover – the real issue is drug runners and the potential for terrorists to come across here. People smuggling has recently gone ballistic. It’s never been a kind, gentle business, but recently it’s turned into a war. They stack people like cord wood in the back of vans and try to get to Tucson or Phoenix. There was a bus line that hauled the illegals' around, but the busted that enterprise and so the Coyotes have a bigger job.
What is the problem with a national ID card? We have bank accounts, SSI#, drivers licenses, and passports now. We have no secrets from the govt., so why not have one smart card to swipe for things as we move around – especially when getting a job. Then it would be easier to crack down on the employers. If you remove the jobs in the equation you will reduce the problem, but we need more workers all the time.
Living in the modern world is an invasion of privacy – that’s really the reason I live the way I do now – I’m not really a part of the world anymore, and it’s all because of technology – Thank you Internet.
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post #24 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:29 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

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Botnst - 1/28/2005 12:06 AM

Yup, you're right about the employer, Z. A problem with forcing the employer to prove eligibility may be that it puts the employer in the role of document expert. Anybody want to force business to become an extension of immigration policy?

But it is just plain stupid and cruel the way we bait them across the border with jobs that citizens plainly don't want and boot them out when the employer tires of them and we also prevent them from access to services for which they pay taxes.

I'm sure there's a real simple solution out there. Bet somebody's going to suggest it real soon.
So its ok if your country is invaded, because checking citizenship might be an "inconvenience" for potential employers? Here is your real simple solution: put fat cats who hire them in prison.




Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #25 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:47 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

Quote:
Botnst - 1/27/2005 10:22 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/28/2005 12:10 AM

Pay taxes? They don't pay no stinkin' taxes! How do you figgur?
If at the very least they make a purchase, they pay taxes.
Around these parts, they pay sales tax and that's about it -- and there are tens of thousands of them. Their children go to public school, they receive free health care and social services, they aren't prosecuted for any but the most heinous of violent crimes, they jack cars, drive with no license/insurance -- it goes on and on. Then there are the coyotes, some of whom are ruthless, bloodthristy criminals who prey upon these hapless souls in the worst ways imaginable.

I know most of these folks come here out of desparartion with the best of intentions, but there's a very dark culture that grows around all of this, and it isn't relegated to the "bad part of town" as it would be in many communities. It permeates all of the valley to some extent. I now live beyond the reach of this culture, but see the impact on the few occasions I tune into the local news in Phoenix/Scottsdale, and it isn't pretty.

Bottom line to me is that they're obviously here for the same reason there are fights in NHL hockey games -- because the powers that be want it that way.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #26 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 10:31 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

America always needs the most recent immigrants to do the dirty work we have grown too good for (or want better pay for). This is the way it has always been throughout history. Take this away and massive inflation rears until the enactors of immigration reform retract their extremist actions. There is no real answer regarding equality. We need them and they need us and anyone that doesn't acknowledge that is living in fear of things they don't understand.
This is all the hypocrisy of human nature. The saddest thing here is that it affects people's welfare directly.

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post #27 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 10:45 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

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GermanStar - 1/28/2005 11:47 AM

Bottom line to me is that they're obviously here for the same reason there are fights in NHL hockey games -- because the powers that be want it that way.
There's the real bottom line - the fix is in - this is big money. We had a load of drugs break down recently with a broken axel. BP was called - 1 hr. later a second truck showed up, off loaded the cargo and went on - 10 min. later the BP showed up, impounded the first truck.
It's seldon that a BP dosen't come by every 15/30 min. This state and all of the real estate development has long been tied to the old guard of orgainized crime. At some level everyone who has every done anything in AZ has had their conections and this is just a part of it. Check out where the money came from to develope Fountain Hills.
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post #28 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 11:00 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/28/2005 11:47 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 1/27/2005 10:22 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/28/2005 12:10 AM

Pay taxes? They don't pay no stinkin' taxes! How do you figgur?
If at the very least they make a purchase, they pay taxes.
Around these parts, they pay sales tax and that's about it -- and there are tens of thousands of them. Their children go to public school, they receive free health care and social services, they aren't prosecuted for any but the most heinous of violent crimes, they jack cars, drive with no license/insurance -- it goes on and on. Then there are the coyotes, some of whom are ruthless, bloodthristy criminals who prey upon these hapless souls in the worst ways imaginable.

I know most of these folks come here out of desparartion with the best of intentions, but there's a very dark culture that grows around all of this, and it isn't relegated to the "bad part of town" as it would be in many communities. It permeates all of the valley to some extent. I now live beyond the reach of this culture, but see the impact on the few occasions I tune into the local news in Phoenix/Scottsdale, and it isn't pretty.

Bottom line to me is that they're obviously here for the same reason there are fights in NHL hockey games -- because the powers that be want it that way.
A lot of it is geographical in nature. Arizona gets a lot of slum riff raff from the Tiajuana and Mexico City area, cities where crime is a way of life. Texas gets more of the country folks from the rural agricultural areas along the Gulf Coast and we don't seem to have the kind of crime problems out of them you all are getting in AZ and Socal. If you look at the geography and historical transportation routes of Mexico, you can see how travel in Mexico is restricted by the huge mountain ridges that separate the Gulf and Pacific Coasts from Central Mexico, and how Central Mexico is more connected to CA and AZ then it is to Texas, because walking routes follow the Valley of Mexico north into AZ and CA. Your getting the people who were making money on whores and dope, we are getting those who picked pineapples.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #29 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 11:06 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/28/2005 12:10 AM

Pay taxes? They don't pay no stinkin' taxes! How do you figgur?
The biggest taxes they pay are property taxes in the form of rent. Illegals are a huge bonanza for landlords - they are willing to live in cramped quarters, so a landlord can charge high rents knowing that the illegals will just pack a few more guys into the back bedroom. In Texas, they are driving apartment construction and note-lot used car sales to the point these are the most booming sectors of the local economy. Their impact on taxes and businesses, especially high margin businesses, is huge.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #30 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 11:18 AM
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RE: illegal immigration-how the democrats could regain power tomorrow

The Democrats suck up to the illegals........by trying to make them citizens so they can say "Hey look what I did for you".....rather than campaining on issues....

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