Blood Bath in Iraq Continues - Page 17 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #161 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 06:48 AM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

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kvining - 3/4/2005 7:54 AM

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Botnst - 2/20/2005 11:13 PM

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kvining - 2/20/2005 10:02 PM

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Botnst - 2/20/2005 7:54 PM

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kvining - 2/20/2005 5:25 PM

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Botnst - 2/20/2005 12:58 PM

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GermanStar - 2/20/2005 12:02 PM

Do you think that any three or four disparate cultures can come together to form a genuine community? Do you think that some commonality other than mutual loathing is a requirement for success? I do believe that success would be more likely if this experiment took place in neutral territory.
There are no guarantees. Our own is still experimental in terms of the history of human governance.

If the Iraqis think like the people of the Balkans, theyr'e doomed to permanent war. So far it doesn't appear that they wish to go that direction, but time is young, the jury is out and those dispicable Baathists are still trying to set sides against sides rather than embrace democracy.
How can the Baathists "embrace democracy" when their party has been banned?
Probably a great first step would be for those murdering bastards to quit killing innocent civilians on their way to mosques.

You know, like we did with Nazis post WWII and with Japanese militarist post WWII. But only a complete f**king idiot would think it a good idea to offer power to people who were formerly in absolute tyrranical power and repeatedly have demonstrated an ability to slaughter their fellow civilians by the tens or hundreds of thousands.
Then why are the communists permitted to run? And as far as slaughter goes, doesn't that mean those parties that support us should be banned, given that we have slaughtered thousands of innocents ourselves? Isn't the real problem the Baathist idealogy ? Surely we could allow them to run, and arrest those who are guilty of crimes, while allowing those who are not access to the democratic system, could we not? Isn't that in fact what the Germans have done in the case of the former East German Communists?


All commies are the same and equally guilty? Cool, lets go arrest Zeitgeist and Kerry Edwards for murder. Those two are commies so they are responsible for killing 20 million Russians.

I can't believe you don't get it, KV. The Baathists in Iraq murdered people to gain power and stay in power. They murdered innocent people, children even. They gased them and threw people in limb chippers and pools of acid. The sons kidnapped women off ther street and raped and sometimes tortured them for pleasure, then murdered them. Their former colleagues are still attacking civilians and are trying their best to kill our own fellow citizens and our allies---and you want them treated as equal political partners. You're a better man than that.
You are arguing against youself in this post, no need for me to add more than to quote this one sentence:

"All commies are the same and equally guilty? Cool, lets go arrest Zeitgeist and Kerry Edwards for murder." and change it to:

"All Baathists are the same and equally guilty? Cool, lets go arrest Mohammend and Achmed for murder."


You're kidding, right? Or maybe you're just having fun arguing.

How long did the allies prevent active Nazi Party members from positions of power? By what process were they 'rehabilitated'?

Use that as a model. It worked. Twice. Germany and Japan. No reason it won't work in Iraq.

The very first step of rehabilitation is to stop doing the bad things. Most former Baathists have stopped doing bad things. Some have not. Kill the bad ones, promote the good ones.

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post #162 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

As I have stated, the Nazis and the Shintos were outlawed, and quite legally I might add, as criminal organizations rather than as politcal parties, because the policies they advocated were crimes. Please give me an example of a Baathist policy of that type. As I have also said, Baathism is a political movement that spans the Arab world. Are you saying the Baath Party of Egypt is criminal?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #163 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

As I have stated, the Nazis and the Shintos were outlawed, and quite legally I might add, as criminal organizations rather than as politcal parties, because the policies they advocated were crimes. Please give me an example of a Baathist policy of that type. As I have also said, Baathism is a political movement that spans the Arab world. Are you saying the Baath Party of Egypt is criminal?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #164 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 07:01 PM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

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kvining - 3/9/2005 10:04 AM

As I have stated, the Nazis and the Shintos were outlawed, and quite legally I might add, as criminal organizations rather than as politcal parties, because the policies they advocated were crimes. Please give me an example of a Baathist policy of that type. As I have also said, Baathism is a political movement that spans the Arab world. Are you saying the Baath Party of Egypt is criminal?
Lets see if I can help you with this.

The Nazis in the USA were not responsible for the murders in Europe. The Nazis in Germany were responsible.

The persons of Japanese descent in the USA who were supporters of the Japanese monarchy were not responsible for the war with Manchuria, nor the war with China. Etc. The monarchists and militarists in Japan were responsible.

The Baathists in Syria were not responsible for the murders in Iraq.

The Baathists on Mars are not responsible for the murders in Iraq.

The Iraqi Baathists in Iraq were responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in Iraq. Baathist Iraqis are answerable to the Iraqi people for the murders. Most of them, like most Nazis in Germany and most monarchists in Japan will probably have to take some sort of loyalty oath before receiving full citizenship.

You know, like rebellious southerners in the USA.

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post #165 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

So you propose "collective guilt" applies here? How are we any different? Why are those who advocate democracy not banned from running, given the fact that we have murdered, tortured, and raped innocent Iraqis ourselves? I've asked you that question repeatedly, and you simply refuse to answer it.

Tell me, what of the fact that a particular ideological viewpoint, a viewpoint oddly enough that conflicts with the aims of multi-national oil companies, is not being allowed in the marketplace of democracy? Is there just a smidgen of chance that the reason is so obvious that it stinks up this whole discussion like a dead skunk in the room?


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #166 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

So you propose "collective guilt" applies here? How are we any different? Why are those who advocate democracy not banned from running, given the fact that we have murdered, tortured, and raped innocent Iraqis ourselves? I've asked you that question repeatedly, and you simply refuse to answer it.

Tell me, what of the fact that a particular ideological viewpoint, a viewpoint oddly enough that conflicts with the aims of multi-national oil companies, is not being allowed in the marketplace of democracy? Is there just a smidgen of chance that the reason is so obvious that it stinks up this whole discussion like a dead skunk in the room?


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #167 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 06:23 AM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

...I think this is where a pig, lipstick and the phrase "Looks good, don't it?" enter the conversation.
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post #168 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 07:03 AM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

Quote:
kvining - 3/10/2005 7:55 AM

So you propose "collective guilt" applies here? How are we any different? Why are those who advocate democracy not banned from running, given the fact that we have murdered, tortured, and raped innocent Iraqis ourselves? I've asked you that question repeatedly, and you simply refuse to answer it.

Tell me, what of the fact that a particular ideological viewpoint, a viewpoint oddly enough that conflicts with the aims of multi-national oil companies, is not being allowed in the marketplace of democracy? Is there just a smidgen of chance that the reason is so obvious that it stinks up this whole discussion like a dead skunk in the room?
The subject bounces around like kangaroo on crank. We were talking about Baathists, I think. Iraqi Baathists ran the Iraqi gov, they murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. Not all Iraqi Baathists are equally culpable just as not all German Nazis were equally culpable, else there'd have been millions of German civilians executed post WWII.

I suggested that the model for Germany and Japan would work well for Iraq. Nazis were officially rehabilitated back into political life, once they capitulated. When the Baathists capitulate there's no reason they cannot return to political life, absent those brought to trial, jailed and/or executed for their crimes.
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post #169 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 09:12 AM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

and yes the Nazis in germany are friendly and peace loving folk now? rehabilitated? what are you smoking?



in political asylum
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post #170 of 175 (permalink) Old 03-10-2005, 04:27 PM
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RE: Blood Bath in Iraq Continues

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mzsmbs - 3/10/2005 11:12 AM

and yes the Nazis in germany are friendly and peace loving folk now? rehabilitated? what are you smoking?
Didn't say or imply that. Said they're no longer in power. Their daddies were the bad guys who had to be rehab'd. This new generation may be assholes, but they didn't commit the murders of '38-'45.

Do you think the current Nazis are better or worse or the same as that previous lot?
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