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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:00 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

i can see what you're saying but to me Mushar... is a preservationist or at least trying to survive and playing friends with Iran doesn't really seem strategic to me. although i can definately fathom axis there to keep india and china in somewhat of a check... and the US out... i can definately see that possibility...



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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:01 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

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Storm. - 1/21/2005 1:32 AM

Quote:
kvining - 1/21/2005 5:26 AM
My guess is Pakistan is helping Iran nuclearize as fast as possible anyways - they are big allies.
I'm from Pakistan and I'll have to agree with you on this one. Why? Oh why was there a manhatten project???[:(!][:(!][:(!]
The mistake made here by conservatives is they think Iran's Islamic Republic ideology is a Shiite phenom. It is not. It, just like Al-Queda, is a Pan-islamic ideology. We were so stupid here - our Government Propaganda Machine has been telling us the Jihadists and the Baathists were one and the same, when in fact politically they are mortal enemies. Al Queda and Iran are natural allies. Iran's Islamic Revolution ideology is the exact same idealogy as Al Queda's, the only difference is one's origin is Shia and the other Sunni, but they both want the same damn thing. As I stated in a very controversial thread, the correct response to 911 should have been a nuke in Afghanistan on 912 followed by a fullscale invasion of Iran, in a total war. Instead we got tax cuts and invaded the wrong country. This is going to hurt us real,real bad eventually. We are about to install an Islamic Republic in Iraq. Saudi Arabia could easily fall to Jihadism. The end result could be a new, very unstable Muslim Empire that is essentially the restoration of the Caliphate, a nation that stretched from Spanish Morroco to China, an enormous new nation with nukes and all the oil, closely allied with China against us, formed by millions of people motivated by religion to violent revolution, a force we could not muster an army large enough to exist. The period of American dominance will come to a close.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:03 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

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kvining - 1/21/2005 6:42 AM

Iran and Pakistan have been exchanging nuclear and missle technology. I don't know how much friendlier you can get. Pakistan, Iran and North Korea have a de facto alliance, and they work together as a team to share technology so they can all get ICBM capabilities to protect themselves from us. Iran quit interfering in Pakistan internal affairs a long time ago in recognition of its need to enter into this arrangement.

I think Bot way over-estimates Pakistan's friendship with the US -its all for show, the real truth is the average Pakistani and his mullahs hate our guts, and Mussariff of Pakistan is living on borrowed time until that faction, the majority in Pakistan, take over. To survive, he kisses their asses while playing nice with us - end result, no Bin Laden. Bin Laden is becoming the bridge between radical Shiism and Radical Sunnism. In his last TV appearance, he was dressed in the garb of a high Shiite mullah, something the CIA took public note of, increasing speculation that Bin Laden is actually in Iran, not surprising given that Iran was directly implicated in 911. It has always been my suspicion that Iran was the one ultimately behind Al Queda and 911. It's worked out great for them - they got rid of their arch-enemy Saddam and bottled us up in NamRaq, tying us down long enough to finish their little nuke project. Any idiot who could read the PNAC docs would know that is exactly what Bush would do in response to 911, and I think the radical faction that really controls Iran figured this out. Thanks to these transparent PNAC ideologues, we invaded the wrong friggin country.

Meanwhile, Bin Laden is now posturing himself to be just the man to be the catalyst for a joint Shiite/Sunni Islamic Republic in Pakistan. Now the situation is reversed - the American armies in Pakistan and Iraq will be in nuclear missle range of Iran and Pakistan, and immune from invasion.
You sound like my Politics professor from University, I'd actually love to sit down with you and have a coffee/tea sometime and discuss some of these points. It's rare for me to find someone who actually reads up on such trivial subject matter as Pakistani politics.[:)]

As far as binladen is concerened,... you hit the nail on the head. I don't know what he is doing but one thing is for sure he ain't no muslim (shiite or sunni) since in islam noone is allowed to take the life another,... even thought alot of crazies hide behind the jihad guidlines.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:30 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

When you work in the computer programming field like I do, you get to work with a lot of people from Pakistan, India and Iraq. In addition Houston is one of the few truly international cities in the USA, and oil is always the big news here, so one also picks up a lot of facts about that part of the world just from the news here, and a lot of it is news for people who are betting huge sums of money in investments in these areas, and you are going to get a whole hell of a lot more truth out of them than you are American Media Propaganda.

If there is one thing I have learned through it all it is this - Islam is the most powerful human force on the planet. No religion moves its adherents so deeply and so emotionally, and no religion requires so much of its followers. As a result, I have tremendous respect for the Muslim people, a respect little shared by my conservative countrymen. It is an incrediable unharnessed and unorganized force, as electricity was in the 19th Century. Whoever succeeds in making it cohesive will change the dynamics of the entire planet. For a century we and the British have done everything to keep the Islamic world divided and prostrate. Bush's plan to split them into American dominated puppet states is really just the same old thinking. Our own history, and the history of the British in India and Pakistan, shows us the hardest thing for any government to resist is human aspiration. Sooner or later, something has got to give. If the same forces take hold of Islam as did in the 6th and 7th Century, it will be the historical equivalent of our first nuclear detonation.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 06:35 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

Quote:
JimSmith - 1/21/2005 1:02 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 1/21/2005 12:46 AM
.......I don't think anybody in the gov thinks Iran is a military targte at this time. Despite building an army for 2 wars in the 1990's, we are probably unable to handle another war without relying on tactical nukes. At this time I just don't see Iran as being that great a threat. And I am sorry to say, I haven't the tea leaves and mindreading necessary to to speak with authority on what this or that nation's leadreship has up its sleeves.
......
I would suggest Mr. Cheney's comments directly contradict your first sentence from the paragraph I excerpted above. While he was "careful" to frame it as a military target of greater importance to Israel, I think the whole point was to communicate Iran is a military target. If you want to read some kind of innocence into that go ahead. I see no reason to mention this in an interview "innocently" so I presumed it was part of the typical conditioning process for the American people.

The rest of that paragraph I agree with, and find that to be one of the fundamental proofs of how wrong our presence in Iraq today is. It has made us weaker, not stronger. We are now a single attack away from desperation, as leaping to tactical nukes to protect our interests is a sure sign of desperation. Much more so than the "insurgents" in Iraq stepping up their attacks as the election approaches. Jim
Didn't say I was right, said I thought about it. It's easy to take a shot, now let's see your stuff. What do you think the dynamics are? What do you think the various governments will do and why?

Concerning Pakistani politics, its a big country and its government is not entirely under control of the eladership. In otherw ords, what we in the USA would consider a shocking breach of public trust--some general taking any army somewhere without the president's knowledge, is not uncommon in Pakistan.

Also as you can see in evidence on this board (two people of Pakistani descent, two views of relationship with Iran) the public is not nearly of one mind and has less respect and trust for their gov than we have for ours.

It is entirely reasonable and I'd say probable that Pakistan's gov is simultaneously aiding Iran and Al Queda and opposing them and that the two factions in the gov don't know about each other or are in opposition to each other. The gov is ineffective except the military, which is marginal. That is why the military is on power and a big reason why the civilian gov works somewhat in opposition to the rpesidency. And they have The Bomb. Pakistan is a freaking scary mess.

What should the US gov do, not talk to Pakistan? We tried that from Reagan II until 9/11 and look what it got us--where we are now. But if we befriend Pakistan, which is simultaneously helping us fight Al Queda and confront Iran while aiding Al Queda and aiding Iran, we'll be entering a volatile relationship with a schizophrenic country armed with a nuke. I don't see any good policy possible nor a hopeful outcome.

It's not all darkness and evil and bad times. Musharraf has forced and cajoled his military to cease aiding Al Queda and the Afghan warlords. He has largely controlled the Kashmiri insurgency, lessening the near nuke tensions with India and allowing high-level talks between the countries. And it is no longer offering sanctioned aid to Iran's nuke program. That's a huge step in the right direction.

The greatest long-term threat to the world from Pakistan (in addition to nukes) is the tens of thousands of uncontrolled religious schools, many of which use Saudi Arabias virulent interpretation of the Quran to teach literacy. The religious schools are the primary educational system of that country. In order to fight this educational system the gov must offer a better alternative, a modern educational system. Pakistan is one of the poorest countries in teh world. It cannot afford to create a full-fledged alternative to the madrasas and it cannot control the education within the madrasas.

How about the American taxpayer picking-up the bill to create secular schools? It's cheaper than a nuclear war.
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 06:54 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

Ah, Bot! I thought I already did that. Our government cares not a whit about any other government they cannot purchase and run from behind the curtains so there is no need to speculate about any other government. And, I already noted I thought Mr. Cheney was warming us up for the next step in the war over the world's oil reserves.

There is no doubt our support for Israel has provided the lubrication necessary for the Bush administration to insert their arms in the asses of the Israeli govenment and operate them like finger puppets. Yeah, the Israelis can pick their noses with a pinky or something that we don't quite have full control over from our insertion point, but nuking Iran on their own is not in the cards. Cheney also does not engage in idle chat with the press or get trapped in undirected ramblings. That discussion was a seed that will be fertilized with more bullshit and grow into another WMD-like rationale for needing to go to war, which will quickly go over our heads. That part, going over our heads, is not intentional it is just inevitable given the ability of this team to plan for what will happen instead of dream about what they would like to happen.

Jim
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 06:58 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

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JimSmith - 1/21/2005 8:54 AM

Ah, Bot! I thought I already did that. Our government cares not a whit about any other government they cannot purchase and run from behind the curtains so there is no need to speculate about any other government. And, I already noted I thought Mr. Cheney was warming us up for the next step in the war over the world's oil reserves.

There is no doubt our support for Israel has provided the lubrication necessary for the Bush administration to insert their arms in the asses of the Israeli govenment and operate them like finger puppets. Yeah, the Israelis can pick their noses with a pinky or something that we don't quite have full control over from our insertion point, but nuking Iran on their own is not in the cards. Cheney also does not engage in idle chat with the press or get trapped in undirected ramblings. That discussion was a seed that will be fertilized with more bullshit and grow into another WMD-like rationale for needing to go to war, which will quickly go over our heads. That part, going over our heads, is not intentional it is just inevitable given the ability of this team to plan for what will happen instead of dream about what they would like to happen.

Jim
You may be right. The degree to which we may or may not control Israel is an issue that is insoluble here. I don't think we control them on issues of their national self-interest, you do. We can both offer evidence either way, which means the evidence is equivocal. I watched Cheney and thought it sounded like a reasonable and prudent assesment and you think it was laying the groundwork for war. Again, equivocal.

We'll all find out eventually.
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

Think of Israel as a child. They may act independently on occasion and risk a scolding, but they know they'll have to come home and face mommy and daddy sooner or later, probably sooner...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 07:14 AM
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

Bot, you could be right that if our intentions were perceived as being against Israel's best interests then they might resist. Or, if their intentions were perceived to be against our best interests, we might break the connection. But in this case it seems Israel is not uncomfortable with Cheney's, Rice's and Bush's arms where they are, and so are Cheney, Rice and Bush. Lets see how the Israelis respond to the suggestion. Jim
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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RE: 'Israel may act first' -- Cheney

I disagree -- Israel will ultimately roll over and do as they're told. They're completely dependent.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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