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post #71 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 06:11 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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JimSmith - 1/20/2005 2:42 AM

Well, this has been interesting.

Bot, I think the "following" Kirk has earned has been because he has been effective, and has been out front on the "side" he represents, on purpose. When I stumbled upon the OD forum, the right wingers had free reign, and Kirk was the only persistent, reliable supporter of the anti-Iraq war argument, which was broadened to be the anti-religous right/conservative movement.

He was ankles to head above the competition on quality and another order of magnitude better on quantity. And, as things went on, he began to use the formula he recognized and described earlier, noting it was becoming more effective than being technically correct. He coupled the shouting and chanting method of arguing of the religous right/conservatives with actual supporting facts, something the other side never learned to do and could not adapt to.

He won a "following" because he was leading the charge. When others of anti-war, and subsequently anti-conservative ilk began to fire back with him, Kirk upped the ante. If others filled in behind him, he turned up the gain. He wanted to run his game and felt no qualms about being a little more outrageously aggressive than any of the rest of us would feel comfortable with, and then he maintained it at that level, something none of us had the time or talent to match.

If he had been a mere dork like VD spouting unsupported liberal and anti-war slogans and absurdities, I doubt any of us would have been as impressed - I know I would not have been impressed anyway. I think I might have joined the other side to tell him to shut the hell up if he had been a simple Pong game with a liberal bent. But he wasn't and isn't.

At the time I first began participating in OD I noted the war supporters/religious right supporters/Bush adorers were much like the Republican Party - more organized and openly supportive of each other on the forum. Actually I thought it was really like a bunch of good old boys slapping each other on the backs after beating up a fag - really kind of disgusting. Used to happen after every narrow minded, mean spirited little sound bite or quip intended to be hurtful. So I started doing the same. JB, KV or anyone else that took a shot back, I jumped in and slapped them on the back telling them what a good job they did. It got the nastiest response, which I really found amusing. I had no intention to take it to the level Kirk did, but I sure was glad he stepped up and did it. I was then awed by by how persistent and ferocious his responses were, and for how long. So, Kirk earned a "following" because he was a risk taker and a winner. Pure and simple. Jim
Yours is all about effectiveness of getting a particular message out, and that is exactly what I said, but using different symbols. You agree with him and others, too, but there is no Jim Smith folowing. Why not? Its all in the style.

Look how you and Ron describe your perception or belief in the subject and look how Kirk describes his. You may agree on the subject. You cannot but help to see a stylistic difference.

Most of the rest of what you're talking about is he said/she said stuff. You're welcome to it.
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post #72 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 08:03 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

You note a style that attracts a following. That would be a fair characterization of a leader, would it not? Now KV may or may not be a leader in real life, but he is at this time in this venue. The focal point of that leadership is Iraq. Would we be here in this virtual place discussing this subject right now if we hadn't invaded Iraq? One can only speculate, but I'll say no, we wouldn't. I don't know where or if we would be in this virtual community, but we wouldn't be here. KV may or may not have ever chimed in on OD in the first place, if he did, his role would have more likely been that of a free agent rather than a leader. "Absent Iraq, I am just your typical slightly left of center guy." -- KV. My experience bears this out. On the other hand, I don't want to sell the boy short. I've probably learned more from his posts than any individual in any forum that I frequent.

Iraq is a polarizing issue and yes, KV has a style in regard to that issue which is equally polarizing. That style can both draw my admiration and make me cringe, depending on the circumstances, but the message is consistent, loud, and clear. He is a lightning rod of activity far beyond any of the rest of the anti-Iraq crowd, and that is a result of style as you say. But if that's all it is, the same people would gather to support him despite the message, which I don't believe for a minute. The style (or volume) may serve as a receptacle for response, but the message determines the respondents.

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post #73 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 08:06 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

I guess the connotation for "style" for me is one of a lack of substance. "Presentation" and not the substance. Kind of means "flash" or "superficial" and that is not what Kirk's approach was about on MBShop. Kirk took the lead role. Because he was effective, he developed a "following" as I see it, not because anyone particularly like his "style." He insisted on being out front and was effective. He got his "following" "the old fashioned way - he earned it."

As for he said, she said, well, it used to be in the MBShop records. I don't care to look back, but based on the announced purge I doubt looking would be worth the effort. Jim

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post #74 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 08:16 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

I don't think it's a matter of style at all. It's a matter of substance. There may have been right wingers at the Shop who could keep up with KV in argumentation if they wanted to, but they didn't. I'm pretty sure the whiners were the ones who couldn't meet his arguments so decided the solution was to silence him.
There's a fair number of shop left-leaners here, I don't think any of us whined to the mods. Is there any evidence that any left leaners whined to the mods about KV's style?
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post #75 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
JimSmith - 1/20/2005 2:52 AM

Quote:
kvining - 1/20/2005 1:59 AM

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 1/20/2005 12:59 AM

I'm not sure whether I'll lead, follow, or get out of the way, but I ain't all atwitter about the individuals involved in this roiling tempest in a teapot. Rather, I just can't stomach the venal, arbitrary and capricious manner in which this episode has unfolded. For me, this is entirely about principles and the chicken-$h!t way this was handled by weasely whiners and ad lib administrators. Ideology had very little to do with my involvement...but, you have to admit that there is a rather curious correlation between them that's banned and them that run free and unscathed.
We will see if your assumptions are correct. Mikemover has just typed the dreaded "f" word in his protest post to the Nuremburg Laws thread. I have been amused at how he seems to be immune from banning on the SSI issues (or the mods over there are too stupid to realize SSI is a political issue). We have a case where someone on the right side of the specturm has now engaged in all the no-nos. Dissing the mods, talking politics, cussing and bitching about the new status quo, not to mention he probably posts 100% on OD. Looks like you have a test case.
Hey, MikeMover was instrumental in getting the Diesel Discussion forum thread on engine oil bypass filter media deleted. So I know he posts there. In that case MikeMover was not at fault. It was the mob who had a different opinion and got uppity. MikeMover responded like KV on OD. Jim
I stand corrected. I'm not bashing him in any case, I am just noting his particular interaction with Gruppenfurher Gilly overthere is no different than mine or jjl's was. Today's comments from Gilly and Vkommie are truly instructive of how twisted people can get.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #76 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:19 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

It is just nice that someone else got banned before myself. I guess I am getting old. What is really getting old is all the pointless specualtion on who did what. Ho hum.
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post #77 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:20 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Sheer speculation here, but mikemover, webwench and many others are local members from the perspective of MS. That might afford them a certain degree of latitude, since a lot of these folks know each other or have at least met. mikemover is giving Gilly all kinds of hell -- way more than Z did, but he's still there -- for the moment at least...

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post #78 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

If anyone wants to see utter hypocrisy in action, take a look at the Michael Moore thread at MBS.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #79 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:25 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/20/2005 11:20 AM

Sheer speculation here, but mikemover, webwench and many others are local members from the perspective of MS. That might afford them a certain degree of latitude, since a lot of these folks know each other or have at least met.
kv's sig "banned in GA" kind of sparked that idea in my head too... Mike seems to be trying to get to the bottom of this mess. He is exhibiting kv like doggedness....[:D]



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post #80 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/20/2005 11:20 AM

Sheer speculation here, but mikemover, webwench and many others are local members from the perspective of MS. That might afford them a certain degree of latitude, since a lot of these folks know each other or have at least met. mikemover is giving Gilly all kinds of hell -- way more than Z did, but he's still there -- for the moment at least...
One must give mike accolades for standing up and letting these people know what he thinks. I have noted the people supporting Gilly seem to be constituted of those who had the most difficulty in making any intellectual arguments to support their causes. It is not surprising they are the ones who resorted to this. The posts from Mr. Volkommie drip with the psychology of an individual unable to deal with people who disagree with him, in fact in one statement he states that those who disagree with him are "infringing on his rights". I actually am saddened these twisted individuals were able to destroy what was one of the most balanced and intelligent forums I post on, and am equally saddened that some of the individuals who do not care for me were moved by their dislike of me to initially support what is obviously the actions of a few small minded misguided and immature individuals. The illustration of the mindsets at work here confirm for me my original opinions, for which I was taken to task by Ms. Webwench, and they confirm them utterly and completely. Perhaps her opinion on this has evolved.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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