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post #61 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 08:50 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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kvining - 1/19/2005 8:40 PM

You are precisely right. People are dying over there. People are getting ripped from their families over here, and sent in harm's way in a war less and less people want. We are killing innocent people over there. All this stuff makes the blood boil. Absent Iraq, I am just your typical slightly left of center guy. But I am outraged by what I see as mass murder, and verbalize my feelings on the subject in no uncertain terms, and am met by the same. I'm also tired of pro-war propaganda and spin being put forth like some kind of valid intellectual argument, and I like to rub people's faces in it if I can prove it false. Why? War ain't bean bag. I literally see the lives of people at stake here. I, like a lot of people are playing hardball. I'm not afraid to pitch.
I have knock-down dragout arguments with pro-Iraq friends and family with some regularity, but then we move on to other subjects..... I wouldn't walk away from a friendship over our disagreement on this issue or judge someone as one of "them" because of it -- certainly not in real life.

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post #62 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 09:42 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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GermanStar - 1/19/2005 10:31 PM

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Botnst - 1/19/2005 8:08 PM

And it just grew as people tended to choose sides based more on sympathy for a personality or style than differences in opinion (IMO). For example, you, Kerry and Z are all far, far to the left of Kirk, but there was/is somethign about his style that attracted a following, evidenced here by the numerous posts sympathetic to him and complimentary of him. That's no small feat.
I don't believe you've quite gotten a hold of the fact that the over/under here is Iraq. Iraq is the dividing line between us and them, and it has been for a long time. Mikemover noted a few days ago that he was surprised to share my opinion on something. The fact is that Mike and I are on the same side a great deal of the time, but I'm one of "them" -- an anti-Iraq guy, hence his surprise. It's all about Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. I know it seems crazy to choose alliances and friends over a single issue -- I certainly don't, but that's exactly what seems to have happened here. It's really kind of small of us, don't you think?
You may be right, I sure don't know. I'm in the lala land of unfounded speculation here, and it's my toy. And just for coming-up with a good counter-argument, I'm going to banish you to being a datum.

Imagine a vast cloud of people, each of whom has a feeling of interest in Iraq varying from totally plus to totally negative. Now imagine that there are an array of inputs to that node-decision. Somebody weakly committed to his opion may be shifted to one side or the other by the least perturbation in thee last input while somebody with a strong opinion would be unmoved by anything short of a Biblical miracle. Now my contention is that the inputs that drive Kerry, Z, and jjl, are different from those that drive you or me or KV. The results of the decision node may appear to put some combination in cahoots when actually different inputs get them there.

This is why you believe you and MikeMover are closer than he thinks. You two have some different inputs that you don't recognize but he thinks are large, while you note similarities that you think are large and he does not. And so forth for all of us.

Now in my estimation of their fundamental political views, I think that Kerry and Z and jjl are so far left of Kerry that except for this one issue, Iraq, they see all of us as jam-packed into a tight circle of various forms of capitalists. Superficial differences only.

But on this one issue, Iraq, their views are very much in line with each other and yours with theirs. And each of you have voiced, at different times, strong opinions about Iraq. But of the four of you, only Kirk has a following of any consequence.

Why?

It's not because of Iraq, but I believe it's because of his message delivery, what I termed "style" earlier. His is a significantly different from the rest of you. Each of you agree and speak frequently to a forum about Iraq and are in accordance but only one attracts a following.

Finally, I am clearly not in accord with ya'll and a lot of other folks are not. I don't think anybody who has been on a forum and has a view opposing yours is going to hang around and tell me how greatly they appreciate my pontifications. (I'd send'em drugs for that, if I could). All of the peopel who are opposite you on Iraq are a rather faceless lot except for one pitcher who can only throw a screwball.

All of this leads me to believe that Kirk's differentiating characteristic from you data points out there is one of style. How can it be otherwise?
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post #63 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Style, balderdash. At the heart of it is that I am not afraid to call this war for what it is - mass murder, and the people who have waged for what they are - neo-fascists.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #64 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 10:18 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Bot, you think too much. Relax.

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post #65 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 10:37 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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kvining - 1/20/2005 12:12 AM

Style, balderdash. At the heart of it is that I am not afraid to call this war for what it is - mass murder, and the people who have waged for what they are - neo-fascists.
kv, i think that's what polarized people on OD. the things that i enjoy are your relentlessness, all the info you linked too, and the delivery (straight up.) [8D]


Bot, on the other hand you have the most convoluted answers ever. i go wtf?? all the time reading your ramblings. i do enjoy a lot of them though. your writing tends to inspire thought processes which is what tickles me silly... I actually enjoy opposite points of view.

at ms shop the combo of strong kv and whacky vd/bhd happend to be a molotov cocktail..



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post #66 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 10:59 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

I'm not sure whether I'll lead, follow, or get out of the way, but I ain't all atwitter about the individuals involved in this roiling tempest in a teapot. Rather, I just can't stomach the venal, arbitrary and capricious manner in which this episode has unfolded. For me, this is entirely about principles and the chicken-$h!t way this was handled by weasely whiners and ad lib administrators. Ideology had very little to do with my involvement...but, you have to admit that there is a rather curious correlation between them that's banned and them that run free and unscathed.
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post #67 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Immature and juvenile are the two words best used to describe the situation. I think the mods just went on some juvenile power trip.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #68 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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Zeitgeist - 1/20/2005 12:59 AM

I'm not sure whether I'll lead, follow, or get out of the way, but I ain't all atwitter about the individuals involved in this roiling tempest in a teapot. Rather, I just can't stomach the venal, arbitrary and capricious manner in which this episode has unfolded. For me, this is entirely about principles and the chicken-$h!t way this was handled by weasely whiners and ad lib administrators. Ideology had very little to do with my involvement...but, you have to admit that there is a rather curious correlation between them that's banned and them that run free and unscathed.
We will see if your assumptions are correct. Mikemover has just typed the dreaded "f" word in his protest post to the Nuremburg Laws thread. I have been amused at how he seems to be immune from banning on the SSI issues (or the mods over there are too stupid to realize SSI is a political issue). We have a case where someone on the right side of the specturm has now engaged in all the no-nos. Dissing the mods, talking politics, cussing and bitching about the new status quo, not to mention he probably posts 100% on OD. Looks like you have a test case.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #69 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 12:42 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Well, this has been interesting.

Bot, I think the "following" Kirk has earned has been because he has been effective, and has been out front on the "side" he represents, on purpose. When I stumbled upon the OD forum, the right wingers had free reign, and Kirk was the only persistent, reliable supporter of the anti-Iraq war argument, which was broadened to be the anti-religous right/conservative movement.

He was ankles to head above the competition on quality and another order of magnitude better on quantity. And, as things went on, he began to use the formula he recognized and described earlier, noting it was becoming more effective than being technically correct. He coupled the shouting and chanting method of arguing of the religous right/conservatives with actual supporting facts, something the other side never learned to do and could not adapt to.

He won a "following" because he was leading the charge. When others of anti-war, and subsequently anti-conservative ilk began to fire back with him, Kirk upped the ante. If others filled in behind him, he turned up the gain. He wanted to run his game and felt no qualms about being a little more outrageously aggressive than any of the rest of us would feel comfortable with, and then he maintained it at that level, something none of us had the time or talent to match.

If he had been a mere dork like VD spouting unsupported liberal and anti-war slogans and absurdities, I doubt any of us would have been as impressed - I know I would not have been impressed anyway. I think I might have joined the other side to tell him to shut the hell up if he had been a simple Pong game with a liberal bent. But he wasn't and isn't.

At the time I first began participating in OD I noted the war supporters/religious right supporters/Bush adorers were much like the Republican Party - more organized and openly supportive of each other on the forum. Actually I thought it was really like a bunch of good old boys slapping each other on the backs after beating up a fag - really kind of disgusting. Used to happen after every narrow minded, mean spirited little sound bite or quip intended to be hurtful. So I started doing the same. JB, KV or anyone else that took a shot back, I jumped in and slapped them on the back telling them what a good job they did. It got the nastiest response, which I really found amusing. I had no intention to take it to the level Kirk did, but I sure was glad he stepped up and did it. I was then awed by by how persistent and ferocious his responses were, and for how long. So, Kirk earned a "following" because he was a risk taker and a winner. Pure and simple. Jim
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post #70 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-20-2005, 12:52 AM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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kvining - 1/20/2005 1:59 AM

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 1/20/2005 12:59 AM

I'm not sure whether I'll lead, follow, or get out of the way, but I ain't all atwitter about the individuals involved in this roiling tempest in a teapot. Rather, I just can't stomach the venal, arbitrary and capricious manner in which this episode has unfolded. For me, this is entirely about principles and the chicken-$h!t way this was handled by weasely whiners and ad lib administrators. Ideology had very little to do with my involvement...but, you have to admit that there is a rather curious correlation between them that's banned and them that run free and unscathed.
We will see if your assumptions are correct. Mikemover has just typed the dreaded "f" word in his protest post to the Nuremburg Laws thread. I have been amused at how he seems to be immune from banning on the SSI issues (or the mods over there are too stupid to realize SSI is a political issue). We have a case where someone on the right side of the specturm has now engaged in all the no-nos. Dissing the mods, talking politics, cussing and bitching about the new status quo, not to mention he probably posts 100% on OD. Looks like you have a test case.
Hey, MikeMover was instrumental in getting the Diesel Discussion forum thread on engine oil bypass filter media deleted. So I know he posts there. In that case MikeMover was not at fault. It was the mob who had a different opinion and got uppity. MikeMover responded like KV on OD. Jim
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