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post #51 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:03 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop



This really is good stuff. Top notch. I wish I could buy you guys a beer, or at least inflict my homebrew on you. [:)]
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post #52 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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Botnst - 1/19/2005 8:35 PM

Same ol' Kirk. There's a vast plain of ideas out there, grazing an unknown grassland of unharvested thoughts and instead of looking at them, you shoot the nearest cowboy out of his saddle. Damned varmints, how dast they interfere with my open range policy where I graze my herd unmolested by beasts red in tooth and nail!

Kirk, look around and what you all are saying and who is saying it. You have successfully opened a free speech self-congratulatory masturbation festival with only left-handed people. Now that bothers me not the least, but it amuzes me that you spend precious electrons condemning a place that gave you the boot and then hustle to make sure no varmints get on your pasture.

Well, you're all hat and bull, both.
This is the second time around with MB Shop. Both times, right wing whiners instigated it, so don't blame it on me. Now that you yourself is here to verify with your presence that content, not behavior was the root of the matter, The Band of the Banned can't help but feel a little vindicated.

Any varmit is welcome as far as I am concerned. As far as I can see I have no power over any other human being in the matter one way or another. Repression is y'alls bag, not mine. Looks like it backfired.





Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #53 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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BusyBenz - 1/19/2005 9:00 PM

Hello

This is my first post on this forum and some of you here may recognize my username from somewhere else!

I have enjoyed Kirk Vinnings many posts, both politically, mechanically and electronically, cyberwise!

I have wanted to air my opinions overthere but had not wanted to rock the boat anymore than it had been rocking with gunwhales getting closer and closer to the wave crashing in sinking the doomed ship barely afloat. But over the past weeks or so, I did express some points that were short and sweet! Tonight was no exception and I posted again another short and sweet and got instant attention by guess who? Posing a simple but obvious question based on his previous posts within the thread, he followed up with his usual juvenile response!

Anyway, I could not agree more with KV and feel the same way. Hope I can be more open over here with my thoughts and not have to feel suppressed! While I haven't gotten the bum's rush like KV, I do plan to continue my membership over there too, but will spend time here making new friends as well! [^] BB
I am humbled by your support. Thank you for what you posted.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #54 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:14 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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GermanStar - 1/19/2005 8:48 PM... I have to wonder why...
Do you actually wonder?

The political things don't interest me over here. This is a good place for them and I'm awfully glad there's a forum open to them. I mean that in all sincerity. I do miss some of the political stuff over there, say 10% of it. It got to be a waste of time when the polar twins entered an unstable 3-body orbit. And that happened with increasing frequency. It wouldn't have hurt my feelings even a teensie-weenie bit to have had the other guy tossed on his ear, too. The only one that bothers me as unfairly bounced was jjl. But it rains on the just and the unjust, sorry he got hosed.

Some folks seem deeply wounded, as though betrayed by an old and trusted friend. For you folks, I say well, we may have invested just a bit too much of our lives in a diversion from life, a fantasy world where our own inventive minds give flesh to artificial personae. If it is really that important, you need to switch off the computer and get involved with real people.

But why these threads? Because they interest me. I am interested in watching the non-random segregating of memetic alleles.

There's a kind of plant, Oenothera biennis (Onagraceae) that has interesting chromosomes. In meiosis, each chromosome is assumed to randomly get assigned to one cell or the other, without influence from the other chromosme's distribution to the cells. But with O. biennis, the meiotic distribution is not random, the chromosomes array in large circular daisy chains and one complete set of chromosomes marches as a group to each daughter cell through the two-stages of meiosis. The reason why this happens in understood, there are reciprocal translocations of chromatids across different chromosomes which forces non-random allignment in metaphase I and II.

Several years ago I was introduced by a CS friend to the concept of the meme--a single particle of thought. Well, I got to thinking that seems analogous to a DNA base pair--you know A-T G-C. By arranging these pairs in three-letter sequences a whole creature can be built. Well, why not a concept, similarly constructed by equivalent base-pairs of thought?

So we had this critical mass of conceptual thought, a rich stew that was unstable for its richness. It had to spill. But instead of spilling and spattering randomly, it was nonrandom segregation of alleles.

Why?
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post #55 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

I don't think your segregation will last long.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #56 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:45 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Very concise, thoughtful response -- thank you. I agree with much of your post, but don't understand your surprise at the alignment here given the sequence of events. It's difficult to say where it will all land once the dust has settled, but I'm not too sure it's even begun to settle yet.

As Gilly made crystal clear, he doesn't understand that it's the rich mix of people and opinions at MS OD that make the place special, although I've always felt that a little more international flavor would have been a good thing. In any case, it's unlikely to resurface here or anywhere else in the same way.

Bottom line -- patience -- you're drawing attention to fallout while folks can still hear the ringing in their ears from the blast.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #57 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 07:47 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
Botnst - 1/20/2005 2:14 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/19/2005 8:48 PM... I have to wonder why...
Do you actually wonder?

The political things don't interest me over here. This is a good place for them and I'm awfully glad there's a forum open to them. I mean that in all sincerity. I do miss some of the political stuff over there, say 10% of it. It got to be a waste of time when the polar twins entered an unstable 3-body orbit. And that happened with increasing frequency. It wouldn't have hurt my feelings even a teensie-weenie bit to have had the other guy tossed on his ear, too. The only one that bothers me as unfairly bounced was jjl. But it rains on the just and the unjust, sorry he got hosed.

Some folks seem deeply wounded, as though betrayed by an old and trusted friend. For you folks, I say well, we may have invested just a bit too much of our lives in a diversion from life, a fantasy world where our own inventive minds give flesh to artificial personae. If it is really that important, you need to switch off the computer and get involved with real people.

But why these threads? Because they interest me. I am interested in watching the non-random segregating of memetic alleles.

There's a kind of plant, Oenothera biennis (Onagraceae) that has interesting chromosomes. In meiosis, each chromosome is assumed to randomly get assigned to one cell or the other, without influence from the other chromosme's distribution to the cells. But with O. biennis, the meiotic distribution is not random, the chromosomes array in large circular daisy chains and one complete set of chromosomes marches as a group to each daughter cell through the two-stages of meiosis. The reason why this happens in understood, there are reciprocal translocations of chromatids across different chromosomes which forces non-random allignment in metaphase I and II.

Several years ago I was introduced by a CS friend to the concept of the meme--a single particle of thought. Well, I got to thinking that seems analogous to a DNA base pair--you know A-T G-C. By arranging these pairs in three-letter sequences a whole creature can be built. Well, why not a concept, similarly constructed by equivalent base-pairs of thought?

So we had this critical mass of conceptual thought, a rich stew that was unstable for its richness. It had to spill. But instead of spilling and spattering randomly, it was nonrandom segregation of alleles.

Why?
Nice imagery. Surely the answer to your last question is pretty simple - people seek out others of like mind. In the canteen at work there are little groups of people who always sit together. It would be better for them if they didn't but they don't make the effort. I suggested a policy where we randomise it, pay the feckers to sit somewhere else or something, got looked at like I had two heads.
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post #58 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 08:08 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
jjl - 1/19/2005 9:47 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 1/20/2005 2:14 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/19/2005 8:48 PM... I have to wonder why...
Do you actually wonder?

The political things don't interest me over here. This is a good place for them and I'm awfully glad there's a forum open to them. I mean that in all sincerity. I do miss some of the political stuff over there, say 10% of it. It got to be a waste of time when the polar twins entered an unstable 3-body orbit. And that happened with increasing frequency. It wouldn't have hurt my feelings even a teensie-weenie bit to have had the other guy tossed on his ear, too. The only one that bothers me as unfairly bounced was jjl. But it rains on the just and the unjust, sorry he got hosed.

Some folks seem deeply wounded, as though betrayed by an old and trusted friend. For you folks, I say well, we may have invested just a bit too much of our lives in a diversion from life, a fantasy world where our own inventive minds give flesh to artificial personae. If it is really that important, you need to switch off the computer and get involved with real people.

But why these threads? Because they interest me. I am interested in watching the non-random segregating of memetic alleles.

There's a kind of plant, Oenothera biennis (Onagraceae) that has interesting chromosomes. In meiosis, each chromosome is assumed to randomly get assigned to one cell or the other, without influence from the other chromosme's distribution to the cells. But with O. biennis, the meiotic distribution is not random, the chromosomes array in large circular daisy chains and one complete set of chromosomes marches as a group to each daughter cell through the two-stages of meiosis. The reason why this happens in understood, there are reciprocal translocations of chromatids across different chromosomes which forces non-random allignment in metaphase I and II.

Several years ago I was introduced by a CS friend to the concept of the meme--a single particle of thought. Well, I got to thinking that seems analogous to a DNA base pair--you know A-T G-C. By arranging these pairs in three-letter sequences a whole creature can be built. Well, why not a concept, similarly constructed by equivalent base-pairs of thought?

So we had this critical mass of conceptual thought, a rich stew that was unstable for its richness. It had to spill. But instead of spilling and spattering randomly, it was nonrandom segregation of alleles.

Why?
Nice imagery. Surely the answer to your last question is pretty simple - people seek out others of like mind. In the canteen at work there are little groups of people who always sit together. It would be better for them if they didn't but they don't make the effort. I suggested a policy where we randomise it, pay the feckers to sit somewhere else or something, got looked at like I had two heads.
Some of the folks here I'd rather not share a room with, much less lunch. While others I'd like to buy a large lunch with flowing beer just for the conversation. And most people fall somewhere in between. I imagine that's similar to most people, though I may be a harsher judge than many of us.

The problem is of course in the definition of "like-minded". At some level we all are, and at another level each of us is entirely unique set of patterns, so that's no good as a useful explanation. In some ways, I flatter myself to think that you and I are very much alike, because of our chosen professions and hobbies, but in other ways I'm much more like Webwench or MikeMover than I am like you. Well, I killed that horse, then I clubbed it. Sucker better not twitch.

I think the event that caused the first banishment was only the final straw. Not that Kirk was the only one--far from it. But he was the unfortunate last guy in the door that had to buy the house a round. Then you, ya numbskull, had to go offer to kick the bouncer's ass. Usual result.

But I think the instability of the system grew in a positive feedback loop. The original, ultimate cause was probably set or initiated in the first banning. We all knew our various roles and slipped right back into them without much effort (We spent like what, 3 days before a political post got personal?). And it just grew as people tended to choose sides based more on sympathy for a personality or style than differences in opinion (IMO). For example, you, Kerry and Z are all far, far to the left of Kirk, but there was/is somethign about his style that attracted a following, evidenced here by the numerous posts sympathetic to him and complimentary of him. That's no small feat.

This created some sort of instability, but I am unsure how. It's too bad that all the threads got purged, a smart student of group psychology could probably model it, given all the different sets of data testing the same individuals and ideas. It would be intersting to find out how much fidelity there was by people to personality vs ideas.
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post #59 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 08:31 PM
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

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Botnst - 1/19/2005 8:08 PM

And it just grew as people tended to choose sides based more on sympathy for a personality or style than differences in opinion (IMO). For example, you, Kerry and Z are all far, far to the left of Kirk, but there was/is somethign about his style that attracted a following, evidenced here by the numerous posts sympathetic to him and complimentary of him. That's no small feat.
I don't believe you've quite gotten a hold of the fact that the over/under here is Iraq. Iraq is the dividing line between us and them, and it has been for a long time. Mikemover noted a few days ago that he was surprised to share my opinion on something. The fact is that Mike and I are on the same side a great deal of the time, but I'm one of "them" -- an anti-Iraq guy, hence his surprise. It's all about Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. I know it seems crazy to choose alliances and friends over a single issue -- I certainly don't, but that's exactly what seems to have happened here. It's really kind of small of us, don't you think?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #60 of 122 (permalink) Old 01-19-2005, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Censorship at MBShop

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/19/2005 10:31 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 1/19/2005 8:08 PM

And it just grew as people tended to choose sides based more on sympathy for a personality or style than differences in opinion (IMO). For example, you, Kerry and Z are all far, far to the left of Kirk, but there was/is somethign about his style that attracted a following, evidenced here by the numerous posts sympathetic to him and complimentary of him. That's no small feat.
I don't believe you've quite gotten a hold of the fact that the over/under here is Iraq. Iraq is the dividing line between us and them, and it has been for a long time. Mikemover noted a few days ago that he was surprised to share my opinion on something. The fact is that Mike and I are on the same side a great deal of the time, but I'm one of "them" -- an anti-Iraq guy, hence his surprise. It's all about Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. I know it seems crazy to choose alliances and friends over a single issue -- I certainly don't, but that's exactly what seems to have happened here. It's really kind of small of us, don't you think?
You are precisely right. People are dying over there. People are getting ripped from their families over here, and sent in harm's way in a war less and less people want. We are killing innocent people over there. All this stuff makes the blood boil. Absent Iraq, I am just your typical slightly left of center guy. But I am outraged by what I see as mass murder, and verbalize my feelings on the subject in no uncertain terms, and am met by the same. I'm also tired of pro-war propaganda and spin being put forth like some kind of valid intellectual argument, and I like to rub people's faces in it if I can prove it false. Why? War ain't bean bag. I literally see the lives of people at stake here. I, like a lot of people are playing hardball. I'm not afraid to pitch.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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