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post #11 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

It sounds to me as if federal funding is the root of the whole problem. That's a significant culture difference we have. Religious schools are prevalent here, but they're privately funded. The real battle ground is the public schools.

In your case, privatize them, enrollment plummets, many of the schools go belly up as a result, and the ones that remain have increased liberty to set their own agendas. Too obvious I guess.....

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post #12 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 11:08 AM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/18/2005 6:00 PM

It sounds to me as if federal funding is the root of the whole problem. That's a significant culture difference we have. Religious schools are prevalent here, but they're privately funded. The real battle ground is the public schools.

In your case, privatize them, enrollment plummets, many of the schools go belly up as a result, and the ones that remain have increased liberty to set their own agendas. Too obvious I guess.....
One can but hope..
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post #13 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

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kvining - 1/18/2005 10:58 AM

I just see it as confusing the kids. They start the morning in Biology and get a dose of scientific truth on evolution, and then the blue noses trot them down the hall for their "philosophy" class that is actually a disguised Creation Science Indoctrination Program. These school boards are not populated with the Kerry Edward's of the world - you give these nuts a ball like that and they are going to run with it down the opposite side of the field. They tried something similiar a few years back with "Bible History". I just don't trust the people who would implement this idea.
Just like any other subject, they would be required to adhere to a curriculum established by the school board. Still, I agree that some (many?) HS students may not be ready to digest such a subjective topic.

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post #14 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 11:13 AM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
kvining - 1/18/2005 5:58 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/18/2005 11:41 AM

Quote:
kerry edwards - 1/18/2005 9:38 AM

I agree with the Judge's decision for those reasons. However, I don't think that Intelligent Design should not be taught in high schools. It is totally appropriate in a Philosophy class. So is a discussion of the philosophy of science.
Of course, it's likely that the people who want the stickers on Biology texts would not be very happy with the critical examination of theism and religion that occurs in philosophy.
Well OK -- if you must -- just don't teach it under the guise of science.
I just see it as confusing the kids. They start the morning in Biology and get a dose of scientific truth on evolution, and then the blue noses trot them down the hall for their "philosophy" class that is actually a disguised Creation Science Indoctrination Program. These school boards are not populated with the Kerry Edward's of the world - you give these nuts a ball like that and they are going to run with it down the opposite side of the field. They tried something similiar a few years back with "Bible History". I just don't trust the people who would implement this idea.
If it COULD be done I would be very much in favour. School science teaching is not too strong on critical thinking - time is spent in cramming information rather than learning the method - and school Philosophy would fill that gap. I still encounter professional scientists who could benefit from Philosophy 101.
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post #15 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 11:42 AM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

I went through the teaching of evolution creationism twice. Once in public school, once in a christian school.

I thought the public school teacher handled it well. He basically said, "creationist believe god created everything. Some believe in the day age theory, which says that each day in genesis is equal to millions of years, some believe that god started it all in motion and some believe it happened literally in six days. Now lets talk about evolution."

IN the christian school they spent an entire semester telling us how evolution couldn't happen, fossil and geological records were inaccurate and how carbon dating is a myth. By the time they were done I was pretty sure evolution was a fact.

There just isn't a lot to teach with creationism. It's an issue of faith. You can pretty much knock creationism out in an afternoon. God created everthing, drive safely.


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post #16 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 12:18 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
GermanStar - 1/18/2005 1:09 PM

Quote:
kvining - 1/18/2005 10:58 AM

I just see it as confusing the kids. They start the morning in Biology and get a dose of scientific truth on evolution, and then the blue noses trot them down the hall for their "philosophy" class that is actually a disguised Creation Science Indoctrination Program. These school boards are not populated with the Kerry Edward's of the world - you give these nuts a ball like that and they are going to run with it down the opposite side of the field. They tried something similiar a few years back with "Bible History". I just don't trust the people who would implement this idea.
Just like any other subject, they would be required to adhere to a curriculum established by the school board. Still, I agree that some (many?) HS students may not be ready to digest such a subjective topic.
Who do you think is on the "The School Board" these days?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #17 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
kvining - 1/18/2005 12:18 PM

Who do you think is on the "The School Board" these days?
Uhhhhh -- people who will wind up in court facing the same judge? [:D]

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post #18 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 01:10 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

That's actuallu brings me to another point. ID as Philosophy just opens more litigation cans of worms.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #19 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 01:23 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

I came across discussion of ID amongst Physicists, where it took the form of trying to understand why the various physical constants (speed of light, gravitational attaction, particle masses, lifetimes etc) had the values they had, and what the universe would look like if these were even slightly different from what we observe now. The argument for ID suggests that even small differences in these constants would have produced a universe very different from ours, and incaple of supporting life as we know it, Jim. This is a legitimate scientific debate.

However, the term Intelligent Design seems to have been stolen by Christian Evangelicals and the meaning altered towards simple creationism. I most certainly would not like to see that in Biology class. But in Dover, Pennsylvannia it seems to have already happened. Below is a statement from the school:


The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin's theory of evolution and eventually take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin's theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The theory is not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.

A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.

Intelligent Design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. The reference book "Of Pandas and People" is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what Intelligent Design actually involves.

With respect to any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origin of life to individual students and their families.

As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments.


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post #20 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-18-2005, 01:36 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

A follow up: I just seen an interview on Channel 4 with the head teacher at Dover school. He described how most school board members were in favour of teaching creationism. He did mention one dissenting voice - one member thought humans had been created by aliens!

These people get to fix what children are taught?

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