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post #91 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 10:39 AM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
Storm. - 1/21/2005 7:49 AM

Quote:
jjl - 1/20/2005 12:48 AM
Not at all, Storm, there's a lot of groping around in the dark here (did I really say that?). What's your opinion of religious schools? Is it ok for your taxes to fund faith-based schools - catholic schools, muslim schools, C of E schools? Or is it okay if they are privately funded? Or should faith-based schools just be banned?
Get your hand off my,... oh wait,... nevermind.[:I]

I think Religion has no place in education. It should be taught at home and parents should be more responsible. I recall being the only muslim family in a catholic school, and my elder brothers being caned (when it was allowed) daily because they would not accept christ to be their saviour (or something like that).

My taxes should not be going into faith based schools, I'd rather it went into something which brought communities and races/religions together (or at least taught tollerance).

Luckily in the field of oil & gas people expect to deal with a muslim (though most of us still drag our knuckles on the floor[:D])
I couldn't agree more. I went to a Catholic school, and it's an experience I'd rather forget. It must have been really tough being a Muslim in a Catholic school, - they sound completely crazy, punishing you for your beliefs. But, wait, now that I think of it, they punished me for my beliefs too!

Very nice MB collection.
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post #92 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:03 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

so how is punishing christians for their beliefs any different......

they are pushing the agnostic and the atheist religious viewpoint on the kids and that is different in what way?
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post #93 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:08 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Christianity is forced down our necks everyday.
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post #94 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:20 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

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boneheaddoctor - 1/22/2005 7:03 PM

so how is punishing christians for their beliefs any different......

they are pushing the agnostic and the atheist religious viewpoint on the kids and that is different in what way?
mm (ahem) you have a point there in your second para. 'Pushing' atheism in school is a bad idea too. I can't think of a real world example, though, except the USSR perhaps?

Edit: or are you VKrackpot?? The world wants to know.
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post #95 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 12:29 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

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Shane - 1/21/2005 2:08 PM

Christianity is forced down our necks everyday.
so is atheism.....and that is different in what way?
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post #96 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 01:16 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

I'm coming out of the closet. Back in the mid 70's I used to be a scientific creationist. Somewhere in the deep recesses of my closet is a box of books from the Institute of Creation Science. I read everything by Henry Morris and Duane Gish that they published.
I now believe most of that stuff is absolute hogwash. At one point in one of his books, Morris tries to prove the Bible is true thru numerology.

The reason I rejected the whole line of thought was that it was not scientific at all and fundamentally epistemologically flawed. None of those authors are really interested in whether any answer is scientifically true. What they believe is that only scientific statements consistent with their interpretation of the Bible can be true. So they reject any scientific line of thinking inconsistent with it. It's an apriori determination of truth by a document wholly unqualified to serve as a criteria of scientific investigation.
This view is deeply rooted in their psyche. They are psychologically unprepared to engage in scientific investigation since it requires that a person follow the lines of thought to which the evidence points.
This, by the way, is almost identical to a prominent Muslim view of the relation of religion and science.
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post #97 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 01:43 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

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kerry edwards - 1/22/2005 8:16 PM

I'm coming out of the closet. Back in the mid 70's I used to be a scientific creationist. Somewhere in the deep recesses of my closet is a box of books from the Institute of Creation Science. I read everything by Henry Morris and Duane Gish that they published.
I now believe most of that stuff is absolute hogwash. At one point in one of his books, Morris tries to prove the Bible is true thru numerology.

The reason I rejected the whole line of thought was that it was not scientific at all and fundamentally epistemologically flawed. None of those authors are really interested in whether any answer is scientifically true. What they believe is that only scientific statements consistent with their interpretation of the Bible can be true. So they reject any scientific line of thinking inconsistent with it. It's an apriori determination of truth by a document wholly unqualified to serve as a criteria of scientific investigation.
This view is deeply rooted in their psyche. They are psychologically unprepared to engage in scientific investigation since it requires that a person follow the lines of thought to which the evidence points.
This, by the way, is almost identical to a prominent Muslim view of the relation of religion and science.
The interesting thing here, on a human level, is how you personally manged to think your way across what seems to be a psychological chasm. I have never been religious (except perhaps pre-teen, which doesn't really count), so have no experience to draw on here. Why do others not take the plunge, when they are bombarded with evidence that they are fooling themselves? Or do they simply not take an evidence-based approach to understanding the world, as you presumably did in your early days?

I agree in part with kv's view of Quakerism. My Quaker friends (one in a theology dept. - she used to be a geneticist!) are good souls, but in the final analysis personally I prefer a more secular humanist approach to even this, without being too much of a vacuous materialist.
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post #98 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

"faith", "heresy", "blasphemy" -- it's the language of people who don't want to be more informed. You must have seen The Matrix. Remember Neo's initial reaction to the truth?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #99 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 02:34 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

Quote:
jjl - 1/21/2005 3:43 PM

Quote:
kerry edwards - 1/22/2005 8:16 PM

I'm coming out of the closet. Back in the mid 70's I used to be a scientific creationist. Somewhere in the deep recesses of my closet is a box of books from the Institute of Creation Science. I read everything by Henry Morris and Duane Gish that they published.
I now believe most of that stuff is absolute hogwash. At one point in one of his books, Morris tries to prove the Bible is true thru numerology.

The reason I rejected the whole line of thought was that it was not scientific at all and fundamentally epistemologically flawed. None of those authors are really interested in whether any answer is scientifically true. What they believe is that only scientific statements consistent with their interpretation of the Bible can be true. So they reject any scientific line of thinking inconsistent with it. It's an apriori determination of truth by a document wholly unqualified to serve as a criteria of scientific investigation.
This view is deeply rooted in their psyche. They are psychologically unprepared to engage in scientific investigation since it requires that a person follow the lines of thought to which the evidence points.
This, by the way, is almost identical to a prominent Muslim view of the relation of religion and science.
The interesting thing here, on a human level, is how you personally manged to think your way across what seems to be a psychological chasm. I have never been religious (except perhaps pre-teen, which doesn't really count), so have no experience to draw on here. Why do others not take the plunge, when they are bombarded with evidence that they are fooling themselves? Or do they simply not take an evidence-based approach to understanding the world, as you presumably did in your early days?

I agree in part with kv's view of Quakerism. My Quaker friends (one in a theology dept. - she used to be a geneticist!) are good souls, but in the final analysis personally I prefer a more secular humanist approach to even this, without being too much of a vacuous materialist.
The Quaker concept of being "Lighted" really appeals to me. Instead of a focus on a man-god or on a father-god, the focus is on attempting to find a connectedness and oneness with the rest of mankind thru a mystical channel that is like electrical current flowing thru your house. One can either live the life Christ described, as most Orthodox Quakers attempt to do, and connect to the positive force and then become powered by it, or one can live a life of evilness and debauchery and connect to the negative side and become powered by evil. To them, most of humanity is stuck in the middle some where. But those who can totally disconnect the forces of evilness from themselves become "Lighted" and thus able to receive the messages of goodness with greater clarity. All these concepts seem more in line with the modern world.





Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #100 of 139 (permalink) Old 01-21-2005, 02:53 PM
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RE: Judge's order to remove evolution stickers from textbooks gets cheers from scientists

I think the reason why people cling to Biblical authority don't have much to do with a lack of awareness of its intellectual shortcomings. I think many believers are aware of the problems but fail to think them through.
The main reasons are sociological. If evolutionists met every week in large social groups with a strong leader and tight relationships with each other at pot lucks and prayer meetings while affirming the truth of secularism and naturalism it too would be a much stronger movement.
Life in suburban capitalist American surrounded by Walmarts and Macdonalds isolated in cul-de-sacs that require a car to engage in the slightest activity can be pretty alienating. Conservative religion meets these needs with regular social gatherings and deep familial bonds. Most people who believe in it, live with immediate family members that believe and almost always extended family members that also believe. To give it up will almost certainly result in social isolation.
The most fruitful time for escape is between 18-26 yrs old when teenagers escape their immediate family bonds and usually enter college where 'Truth' tends to trump social usefulness. It was this, along with having a minister who allowed himself to think freely for a couple of years, that allowed me to escape. The conservatives seem to recognize this because they pump huge amounts of money into groups like Intervarsity which are designed to keep young adults in the fold in these questioning years.
Also, another factor that might explain the big difference between fundamentalism in the US and UK is that unlike the UK where most colleges and universities are public, there are many private religious colleges that specialize in keeping the children of the faithful in intellectual line. These schools are growing and conservative Christians are willing to spend a lot of $$ to send their kids to them. They are also funded via government grants and student loans given to the students.

The pyschological component is still important though. Having been brought up with the hope of an afterlife and continued existence of one's friends and relatives it takes a fair amount of time to condition oneself to the thought that we only have one life.
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