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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 11:27 AM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Kuan1, I was talking about the 1% here in the good ol' US of A. It is irrelevent to this topic what the rest of the world makes dollar wise. Nice spin though. A+ marks for you!
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 11:33 AM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

To Jammingmostawesomelyjamesdude (air guitar body gesture). To clarify my point to you I will say this: If you think equal taxes across the board regardless of income are fair then please look at countries that practice this "equality". They are all 3rd and 2nd world countries. Is that what you want for the USA and yourself?
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 12:41 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Quote:
Shane - 11/12/2004 2:33 PM

To Jammingmostawesomelyjamesdude (air guitar body gesture). To clarify my point to you I will say this: If you think equal taxes across the board regardless of income are fair then please look at countries that practice this "equality". They are all 3rd and 2nd world countries. Is that what you want for the USA and yourself?
You mean like Hong Kong? HK has had one of the highest rates of economic growth over the last 50 years with its flat tax regime (16%, I believe). During that period it's GDP per capita grew from a small fraction of the UK's (the "mother country") to exceed it, despite the UK's highly progressive (read "screwing successful people") tax structure.

Most 3d world countries (the 2d world isn't around anymore) don't have the infrastructure to run an effective tax system, whether progressive or flat, and the tax regimes that are in place are marked by much higher evasion rates than in the west, so I'm not sure it's a valid comparison. Which 3d world countries have flat tax rates?
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 12:49 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Hong Kong ain't a country and is an anamoly at that. 2nd world countries exist, try Mexico for one close to home. The rich already have enough on their side, making the taxes flat just creates more disparity among the class. It also effectively kills the middle class like yourself.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Quote:
Shane - 11/12/2004 1:33 PM

To Jammingmostawesomelyjamesdude (air guitar body gesture). To clarify my point to you I will say this: If you think equal taxes across the board regardless of income are fair then please look at countries that practice this "equality". They are all 3rd and 2nd world countries. Is that what you want for the USA and yourself?
No. I provided this analogy for the people that complain about "only the rich get a tax break" and the poor and middle class get nothing. They do, just not the same amount.
This show their whining has no merit. Maybe now they'll understand...

I never intended to say anything about a straight tax rate.

And again, I think the IRS is unconstitutional - that's what I heard...

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 05:19 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Quote:
PC Dave - 11/12/2004 3:41 PM

Most 3d world countries (the 2d world isn't around anymore) don't have the infrastructure to run an effective tax system, whether progressive or flat, and the tax regimes that are in place are marked by much higher evasion rates than in the west, so I'm not sure it's a valid comparison.
You are exactly correct. There's no way a 3rd world country can effectively levy and collect taxes, prosecute those who evade taxes, or appropriate and spend the tax money in an effective manner.

Shane's attempt to compare such a situation to our economy and tax system is COMPLETELY not valid. Apples and oranges, to say the least.

More than a flat tax (which would be a step in the right direction, at least), I'm in favor of replacing the income tax system with a national retail sales tax. This way, no one can claim "unfairness", because everyone pays the same tax rate on purchases. The "rich" would still be paying "their fair share", because they simply buy more stuff! Tax evasion would become nearly impossible...When you buy something, they charge you tax on it. Simple, quick, easy. No loopholes, no tax shelters, no late payments, no non-payments, no exemptions, no deductions, no sneaky accounting.... Just a fair tax for everyone. The huge, bloated, inefficient IRS behemoth could be done away with altogether, saving the government billions of dollars!...It makes sense in every way. Hell, even illegal immigrants would be paying taxes under such a system! As it is now, there are MILLIONS of them who are paying nothing! Yet they are using our resources just the same as law-abiding taxpayers......but with a national retail sales tax, they can't avoid it. They have to buy stuff, don't they?....[:)]

See: www.fairtax.org

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 06:29 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

Quote:
Shane - 11/11/2004 1:09 PM

If you like the idea of equal taxes across the board then you should take a close look at all the 3rd and 2nd world countries on this planet. Look what benefits it brings to them. Is this the type of world you want to live in? If you had been born in one of these countries then you sure wouldn't have a chance to live the type of life/opportunities you have now. That is reserved for the wealthy 1%.

PS You are not rich enough to think this way.

PSII You are being manipulated.
Jamminjames, your story was entertaining. There are other entertaining stories about greedy bastards too. Scrooge comes to mind.

Shane, I don't know you, but I think you hit the nail on the head. A flat tax, or, a tax refund that specifically benefits the wealthy, in reality only has the effect of flattening our present tax schedule. The really wealthy were the only winners of the last tax refund. The really wealthy, who are not spending all their income on necessities. Which is why the sales tax doesn't work. Just like the idea that rich people would always pay their sales taxes. They already don't pay their fair share of taxes the way it is today.

You are correct Shane. Very few people are rich enough to think the jamminjames story holds any real value to them. Well, I guess they can think that, but it is delusional. The first clue is that a rich guy would even sit at the table with the other 9.

And, if the rich guy wants to pick up and leave, and take his big income to Europe and pay taxes there, let him. As the saying goes, a fool and his money are soon parted.

Jim
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 10:19 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

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JimSmith - 11/12/2004 9:29 PM

They already don't pay their fair share of taxes the way it is today.
What do you believe their "fair share" of taxes is?

According to the IRS, in 2000 the top 1% of taxpayers earned 20.8% of aggregate AGI (adjusted gross income), and paid 37.42% of income taxes. The top 10% of taxpayers earned 46% of AGI and paid 67.33% of all income taxes (yep, the top 10%, those greedy rich, paid 2/3 of all income taxes). The bottom 50% earned 13% of AGI and paid 3.9% of all income taxes.

So the top 1% paid almost twice the percentage of income taxes as their percentage of income, while the bottom 50% paid less than 1/3 the percentage of income taxes as their percentage of income. Put another way, the top 1% pay over 9 times as much in total tax dollars as the bottom 50%.

So what exactly is their "fair share" that they're not paying now?
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 10:58 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

The top earners are the ones with the greatest benefit from the presently supported economic system. They therefore should pay the most taxes. They have the most at risk and they are the ones that are extracting the most from the economic system.

Their fare share is based on what, given the obvious value of the present system for earning, investing and preserving their wealth to them, they can pay. When the middle class, which is the source of all the wealth that gets accumulated by the wealthy, are unable to consume more goods, it is time to give them a tax refund. Not the wealthy. The middle class spends it while the wealthy save it or invest it in an overseas company. Therefore the wealthy should be happy to invest their tax refunds in the pockets of the middle class. It very shortly gets turned into fuel for the economic engine to make wealth from, that ends up in the wealthy people's bank accounts. But only after it has made its way through the economy and grown significantly.

The rich in this country have it made. Let them pick up and move to Sweden, Finland, Norway, Germany, England, France.....and find out what income tax is. Jim
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-12-2004, 11:43 PM
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RE: Taxes... simplified explanation.

I like a flat rate with no reductions. In my small town, they let Fed-Ex and other companies do not pay taxes. My friend has a sky box and he gets a tax write off on it. These reductions are helping the rich pay less in percentage wise of a person in the middle class.

Lets see; the flat tax is 16% and MrA makes 100K and MrB makes 200K. At 16% MrA would pay 16,000 in taxes and MrB would pay 32,000 in taxes. Gee, MrB pays twice as muck as MrA. So we want to tax MrB more, so he can pay more taxes because he makes more. MrC makes 50K and he would pay 8,000 in taxes.

I sure hate taxes, but 16% is not enough to support our government and social programs. We have a dumb program in our city of paying folks 2K a month to stay off drugs. I was beg not to tell his probation officer. Like hell, he wreck the company truck and I could not deliver anything for a week. I was pist. So lets get rid of some of these dumb programs and let corporate America pay there taxes. And we gave the Grizzles welfare of 270 million for their new stadium.

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