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post #41 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 12:27 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

blackmercedes - 11/8/2004 3:15 PM

I don't always agree with KV's words or tactics, but I think they strike such a chord with many because they are typical of the right, not of the left.
I agree and this gets the right flared up more than anything. I find it ironic that they don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.
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post #42 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 12:48 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

blackmercedes - 11/8/2004 3:15 PM

Well, I'm not Kirk. Not Kirk Vinning, not Captain Kirk, and not Kirk Douglas.

Ignoring the remainder of the thread, I'll tell you what really pisses me off about "debating" and the "left versus right" conflict that seems to be dominating our current policital landscape.

I attend a function, and people, self-proclaimed "conservatives" will just sit and run their mouths off about "bleeding heart liberals" and sit and bash everything that is not "right" or "conservative." Most are fat-assed 45+ white men that took advantage of the creation of stable society to not only take their slice of the pie, but put a fence up around the rest of it.

Then, I FINALLY wear out. I chime in with economic theory and plausible answers to problems. Reply? Typically a personal attack and garbage with no basis in fact. When someone of the "bleeding heart" variety pipes up, it's typically met with shouting, profanity and bullshit like "get out if you don't like it" and other worn-out cliche neo-con catch-phrases that have no meaning.

Us that lean to the middle, or left, are expected to sit and be polite and remain tactful. We often do, since we're probably just nicer people. The neo-cons can sit and spew meaningless crap all they want. The only outrage comes when someone says ANYTHING that they don't agree with.

The period of debate is long gone. Now, it's "If you don't agree, shut up."

I don't always agree with KV's words or tactics, but I think they strike such a chord with many because they are typical of the right, not of the left.
Gee, dude. I think you actually got the point. That is exactly what I do, and on purpose, too. Everyone on the left should be doing it. At heart, I'm just an average smuck who got tired of trying to get a traffic report on the AM radio on the way home from work, and hearing myself being called "filthy liberal scum" by Mike Savage, "Lying Liberal God-hater" by Pillhead Rush, as the local nasty litle radio fascists called for mass arrests of liberals and executions of homosexuals. I'm sick and tired of it, and the whole point is to give them back what they are giving me, with a little intellectual twist - facts to back it up instead of soundbite-slogan-speak. Watch them keep escalating it - from name calling to foaming at the mouth to demands for banning - like I said, everything but counterpoints to original issue. In the end, which one of us is "unAmerican".
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post #43 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 01:02 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

Rickg - 11/8/2004 2:53 PM

kvining - 11/8/2004 10:57 AM
I grew up in a tough neighborhood.
From what you've told us earlier, you still live in a tough neighborhood(or at least near one)[:D]

Like Kirk or not, is kinda beside the point ain't it? Just stay out of the political threads he's involved with. Easy enough.
Actually, Rick, what makes Houston so unique is we have no zoning. Beautiful neighborhoods are surrounded by third-world class slums, or have some low life apartment complex smack dab in the middle. Each is its own type of armed camp. There is no good side of town or bad side, it is a block by block adventure. I live in a nice neighborhood, and fit in well with the typical people here - union guys who work at the chemical plants. We ain't your tree-hugger brand of democrat. I call us "2nd Amendment Democrats"
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

You present your sources of information for unbiased analyzation. The minute somebody poses a contrary opinion to your own, you blast them. This may not have been as often on these forums, but you were that confrontational on MS.

This is not a childish thread, and everybody should take this to heart. It is just as important to have respect for others as it is to present facts with reasoning. Without either, there will be hatred and distrust.

The facts of the matter is that there have been negative and impulsive melodramatic responses.

The left is not evil nor is Bush the reincarnation of Hitler.

Some of the hatred for the president suggests that these anti-Americans might be strong candidates for ivolving themselves in treasonous affairs. I have even heard suggestions on these sites as to assasination.

What is obviously the most important goal is to be in accordance with each other. Right now I see politics splitting this country into two seperate states. Unification cannot and will not be achieved if people can't compromise their feelings and listen to one another.

Go ahead and keep on saying this thread is childish: Everybody who even conceives that the president is right on a single issue needs to be boiled in oil. Truly objectionable and free-thinking human beings will take a firm stance denouncing many works of what people like you preach.

Some may agree with you, but in the end people tend to judge by morals rather than by biased facts.
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post #45 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 02:29 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

Divided? No way.

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post #46 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 02:46 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

HA...That's pretty good![:D]

Except Iowa, Indiana, and Ohio are redstates and Maryland and Delaware supported slavery.
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post #47 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 05:19 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

I think Maryland and Delaware both stayed in the Union. Ohio and Indiana will be along after a while
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

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« Silver Lining Parties | Main | Good Election Result in Dallas »

Thursday, November 04, 2004
Free States vs. Slave States ~
Oh How Far We've Come...
My friend Quyen sent this to me ~ sadly, these two maps need no explanation (scroll down to see both maps):

In case it's hard to read, on the Pre-Civil War Map, the red areas were slave states and the brown areas were territories open to slavery, while the green areas were free states and territories. These distinctions eerily correspond to the red states vs. blue states on the 2004 Election Map ~~ i.e., the blue (Kerry) states correspond to the pre-civil-war free states and territories, while the red (Bush) states correspond to what were the slave states and territories. As one of my co-workers said to me, this might be the most "devastatingly accurate explanation I've seen for what happened on Tuesday." There's a little more discussion about all this, here.

As I post this, I am getting ready to attend the Alameda County Women Judges' Dinner in Oakland, celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board decision, and Congresswoman Barbara Lee is scheduled to speak. After seeing this map today, I'm relieved to have this event to attend tonight. Oh how far we have come as a free country, right?

EPILOGUE: It looks like I may be one of the few bloggers who posted these maps ~ my hits have surpassed 1,000 per day for the last couple of days. This tells me that the maps are being forwarded all over the blogosphere and people are talking about what they may or may not represent (most of us here seem to agree though). I wish I had had more time to contribute lengthy commentary with the maps but (1) I was in a rush when I posted them and (2) as I mentioned before, I do believe the maps speak for themselves, although I acknowledge that they also implicate social-political-historical nuances and complex factors that should be addressed, debated, and discussed. I am glad to see, though, that the maps spurred so much discussion ~ check out the comments section, here. I think the comments people have posted offer additional insight, some clarification (like issues with Oregon), and Woody's comment is especially enlightening and educated on the issue of over/under-representation and necessary redistricting. More on this, soon. Keep posting your thoughtful comments!

04:33 PM in Politics | Permalink

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Oh How Far We've Come...:

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Er...this doesnt really prove anything. Alot of votes in New England were due to that Kerry was from there...and NEw England's always been more liberal...you're just bitter. haha.

Posted by: Jackie | November 8, 2004 03:12 PM

Er, only one problem with that map, and it's a big one. Those "slavery states" should mostly be colored BLUE since they were largely run by Democrats during the pre-Civil war years. Just as the harshest opposition to the civil rights movement in the 50s came from Democrats.
How soon you forget....

Posted by: Toren | November 8, 2004 01:06 PM

There is much less here than meets the eye. Many of these states have at various times gone Democrat and gone Republican (Mondale only won Minnesota; Bill Clinton won Arkansas and Missouri; etc.). This is a drastic oversimplification of electoral politics over the past 150 years. The slave states were largely Democratic until the late 1960s--what does that prove? How popular do you think Republicans were in Mississippi in 1868? There is far too much history and nuance (let alone inconvenient facts) for this to indicate anything; all it shows is a willingness to call one's political opponents bigots based on little more than colored maps.

Posted by: Humphrey Bogus | November 8, 2004 11:29 AM

Someone took things a step farther and overlapped the maps on a simple graph. Design +1, Americas direction -2 ... :(


Posted by: Alithiem | November 8, 2004 08:14 AM

Clearly, secession is the only way forward. The blue states should leave the Union. Taking their money with them. After a couple of generations, they should be able to occupy what will by then be the wasted, subsidy-starved remains of the red states and re-educate the slack-brained inhabitants in the ways of civilisation.

Posted by: Pumpkin | November 8, 2004 07:59 AM

The one thing we can take away from this election is that the U.S. remains a land full of bigots and self-righteous, hypocritical religious zealots....
A sad day for America

Posted by: Tom | November 8, 2004 05:55 AM

Intersting about the slave/free state split. However if you check out the maps here, it's not so bad:

and scroll down you can see the maps corrected for population and also for the gradient between Democrat and Republican margins of victory. What becomes clear looking at the gradient is that Republicans have only eked out wins in most of the nations. That's excellent news for progressives.

Posted by: tim | November 7, 2004 05:49 PM

I've long thought that the Civil War still rages in this country. These maps reinforce my thinking, but I have to ask two questions:

What explains the cultural difference between those who settled in the northern US and those who settled in the southern US?

What explains the continuity of hostility and friction between northern and southern states today?

I guess I wonder why that damned war isn't over yet?

Posted by: Jon Koppenhoefer | November 6, 2004 05:56 PM

Cute but ...

there's less here than meets the eye.
Before the Civil War, the areas shown
on this map as "territories open to slavery"
were almost unpopulated, except perhaps
by soon-to-be-exterminated Native Americans.

They are STILL almost unpopulated,
with huge empty areas and some small
settlements sustained largely by subsidies from the national government.

The empty states -- let's name names:
Dick Cheney's Wymoming, Mormon Utah
and Idaho, North and South Dakota,
Alaska, and oh yeah, West Virginia and
Trent Lott's Mississippi, among others --
enjoy disproportionate representation in Congress and in the Electoral College
simply because the House of
Representatives has not been
increased in number in 80 or 90 years.

Simply adding more Representatives to
the populous states would decrease the
relative overweight of the two-Senators-per-
state formula in the Electoral College.

(The Electoral college is one elector for
every Senator, 100 of those, and one
elector for every member of the House,
435 of those, so the two-Senator mimimums
account for 18+% now. Add 200 Representaves and the Senators would account for only 13+%.)

Enlarging the House would also,
obviously, redistribute power in
Congress. It would give more seats
to California, Florida, Texas, North
Carolina and other large and growing
states, without taking away the one (minimum) Representative for
Wyoming's 400,000 citizens.

By adding another 200 seats to the
House of Represetatives, we would
also force widespread redistricting,
unsettling established incumbents,
bringing fresh air and fresh voices
into Congress.

Posted by: Woody | November 6, 2004 11:47 AM

Small note there--Oregon was not really a 'free state'. They neatly avoided the whole issue by making it illegal for a black person to enter Oregon. No Negroes, no slaves!

Posted by: mythago | November 5, 2004 10:16 PM

Also reflect on the fact that Indiana, although it was Union state in the civil war was later a great bastion of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920'. this explains its inclusion in bush's sweep.

The great struggle during the pre-civil war time was over the growth of slavery into the western territories, Kansas, Texas, New Mexico, California. The northern politicians knew that if the interests of the South ever allied with the interests of the West, then they would dominate the nation. Note that since 1964 all the presidents have either been from the south (Texas, Georgia, Arkansas) or the west (California), defeating candidates from the north east (Massachusetts) or upper midwest (Minnesota and South Dakota)

the evangelical vote is more properly the "white" evangelical vote. 11 o'clock on sunday morning is still the most segregated hour in american life.

Posted by: pragmatic_realist | November 5, 2004 09:26 PM

Angelica, perhaps you missed tonight's news broadcast on NBC where they featured a story about the Texas position on gay marriage and rights -- and Texas, being the largest purchaser of education materials, pretty much dictating the text for the rest of America. The text version is here:


with the following title:

No same-sex marriage in Texas textbooks

Posted by: Deb | November 5, 2004 04:15 PM

unfortunately, i'm not that surprised.

Posted by: cindylu | November 5, 2004 01:39 PM

I'm confused.I got the precinct map from the paper and it looks differnt than the purple map. I know it's an eerie comparison but I know Texas is NOT pro-slavery, or anti-gay rights. Like Mrs. Clinton said, the beauty of this great Nation is that we can debate any party and still be patriotic and American. I just have to stick up for Texas and what I see down here. Regards.

Posted by: Angelica from TX | November 5, 2004 10:54 AM

Goddamn, that hurts.

Posted by: Lauren | November 5, 2004 08:34 AM

The purple map is better


Posted by: Dirty Dingus | November 5, 2004 05:06 AM

good god.

Posted by: Rox | November 4, 2004 06:51 PM

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post #49 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 06:34 PM
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

In the world of the neo-con, it's all about generalizations, but we're not supposed to use the same thing?

I care about the environment, so I'm a "freaky tree-hugger that hates people."

I support my community, including those less fortunate, so I'm a "bleeding heart that supports lazy people that won't work."

I critisize my government, so I'm a "treasonous terrorist."

I protest for change, so I'm a "anti-establishment freak that won't work 'within' the system."

I'm also a homo-lover, godless freak, and OMIGOD, support equality for women.

Kirk, you're an inspiration to me. Next time some "god-fearing, homo-hatin'" neo-con starts spewing his crap in my face, assuming that everyone agrees and those that don't are long-haired hippie freaks that he's only seen on TV protesting, I'm not hesitating to give 'em both friggin' barrels.

My tact is in locked up. Sick and friggin' tired of it.

I'm really trying to see things from your perspective, but I'm having trouble getting my head up my ass
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post #50 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
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RE: KVinning stands ..............alone

Maybe I should change the title of this thread to

"Kvinning Stands With Two Clowns and a Canadian"

Ok OK,

"Kvinning Stands With Three Clowns". [:p]

"The above post does not necessarily reflect the opinion of Cap'n Carageous nor this forum. It may be presented as an attempt at humor or as a quote or paraphrase from another author. Any feelings hurt by this post are the responsibility of the reader. No animals were harmed in the making of this post." Member F.D.I.C. Tax tag and title extra.
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