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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-07-2004, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back


Saudi religious scholars back ‘holy war’
Clerics appeal to Iraqis to support anti-U.S. militantsThe Associated Press

Updated: 4:43 a.m. ET Nov. 7, 2004BEIRUT, Lebanon - Prominent Saudi religious scholars urged Iraqis to support militants waging holy war against the U.S.-led coalition forces as American troops prepared Saturday for a major assault on the insurgent hotbed of Fallujah.

The 26 Saudi scholars and preachers said in an open letter to the Iraqi people that their appeal was prompted by “the extraordinary situation through which the Iraqis are passing which calls for unity and exchange of views.� The letter was posted on the Internet.

“At no time in history has a whole people been violated ... by propaganda that’s been proved false,� Sheik Awad al-Qarni, one of the scholars, told Al-Arabiya TV.

“The U.S. forces are still destroying towns on the heads of their people and killing women and children. What’s going on in Iraq is a result of the big crime of America’s occupation of Iraq.�

In their letter, the scholars stressed that armed attacks by militant Iraqi groups on U.S. troops and their allies in Iraq represent “legitimate� resistance.

Appeal aimed at Iraqis
The scholars were careful to direct their appeal to Iraqis only and stayed away from issuing a general, Muslim-wide call for holy war. They also identified the military as the target, one that is considered legitimate by many Arabs who view U.S. troops and their allies as occupiers.

The independent scholars — some of whom have been criticized in the past for their extremist views — apparently did not want to antagonize the Saudi government, a U.S. ally, or appear to be flouting its efforts to fight terrorism.

Saudi Arabia has sealed off its long border with Iraq and bars people from crossing into that country. Its most senior clerics issued a statement last year saying the call for jihad — or holy war — should only come from the ruler and should not be based on edicts issued by individual clergymen.

Saudi officials did not comment on the latest statement.

The clerics’ appeal came as U.S. troops, backed by air and artillery power and Iraqi security forces, were gearing up for a major assault on Fallujah.

The clerics issued a fatwa, or religious edict, prohibiting Iraqis from offering any support for military operations carried out by U.S. forces against insurgent strongholds.

“Fighting the occupiers is a duty for all those who are able,� the letter said. “It is a jihad to push back the assailants. Resistance is a legitimate right. A Muslim must not inflict harm on any resistance man or inform on them. Instead, they should be supported and protected.�

Besides al-Qarni, the prominent scholars signing the letter included Sheik Safar al-Hawali, Sheik Nasser al-Omar, Sheik Salman al-Awdah and Sheik Sharif Hatem al-Aouni.

Al-Hawali, who was jailed in the 1990s for five years without trial because he criticized U.S. involvement in the 1991 Gulf War against Iraq, once was close to Saudi-born al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden. He opposed the presence of U.S. troops in the kingdom.

His name appeared this month on a list issued by a group of Arab intellectuals seeking to prosecute prominent clerics for encouraging terrorism.

The scholars said inter-Iraqi fighting would cause “great damage to the Iraqis and give a free service to the Jews who are infiltrating into Iraq and to the coalition forces which exploit differences to consolidate their domination.�

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam and home to its two holiest cities, has launched a campaign against militants. The crackdown began after al-Qaida-affiliated operatives attacked three residential compounds in Riyadh in May 2003 and killed dozens of people, bringing terrorism to the kingdom for the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-07-2004, 07:41 PM
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

Muslim clerics calling for anti-US violence.....Hmmm.....

This is NEWS?!?!....

If you find someone who is actually surprised by this revelation, I'd love to meet them.

[8)]

Now you're implying that George W. is controlled by 26 Islamic clerics from Saudi Arabia?!

Dammit, I wish I could find my tintoil hat....I haven't used it in a while.

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-07-2004, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

The core cause of terrorism has always been Saudi Arabian religious fanatics. Mr. Bin Laden is one. Most of the 9-11 hijackers were as well. For some reason we have never really gone after these guys, and it looks like the Saudi Arabian oil fascists who control the Bush family's wealth are allowing them to operate openly in Saudi Arabia, apparently allowing them to urge the killing of American troops and to give these killings religious legitimacy. Bush does nothing about it. I wonder why?
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-07-2004, 10:00 PM
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

I lived in Saudi Arabia for about 5 years. It is a beautiful country.

The government or the royal family is cracking down on the fanatics. It takes time. They are doing it in a way to prevent a revolt in their country. If the US went into Saudi Arabia like they did in Iraq, we will have a major war with of all the Middle East countries.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-07-2004, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

I don't advocate an invasion. A simple bullet to the right set of heads would do fine. We should have been doing that to begin with. Saudi Arabia is riddled with US Intelligence operatives. I am sure they could handle it. As far as the rest of the muslim world, we are massacring children in Iraq, so you think if they were going to get pissed about something to the point of all being up in arms, they would have done so by now. Personally, I think they are scared shitless of us.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 08:34 AM
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

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kvining - 11/8/2004 12:14 AM

I don't advocate an invasion. A simple bullet to the right set of heads would do fine. We should have been doing that to begin with. Saudi Arabia is riddled with US Intelligence operatives. I am sure they could handle it. As far as the rest of the muslim world, we are massacring children in Iraq, so you think if they were going to get pissed about something to the point of all being up in arms, they would have done so by now. Personally, I think they are scared shitless of us.
We are NOT in Iraq "massacaring children". That is anti-US propaganda, and nothing more.

The REALITY is that in Iraq and Afghanistan, our military has gone to greater lengths, AND has taken greater risks, to prevent civilian casualties than ANY military EVER has.

The terrorists are the ones who INTENTIONALLY target innocents on a daily basis, yet you imply that WE are the "baby-killing" bad guys?!?! Absolute rubbish.

In my opinion, people who think like that don't deserve the protection that our troops are dying to provide.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 08:39 AM
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

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kvining - 11/8/2004 12:14 AM
Personally, I think they are scared shitless of us.
Good. Better to be feared by your avowed enemies than to live in fear of them.

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

Quote:
mikemover-the sequel - 11/8/2004 10:34 AM

Quote:
kvining - 11/8/2004 12:14 AM

I don't advocate an invasion. A simple bullet to the right set of heads would do fine. We should have been doing that to begin with. Saudi Arabia is riddled with US Intelligence operatives. I am sure they could handle it. As far as the rest of the muslim world, we are massacring children in Iraq, so you think if they were going to get pissed about something to the point of all being up in arms, they would have done so by now. Personally, I think they are scared shitless of us.
We are NOT in Iraq "massacaring children". That is anti-US propaganda, and nothing more.

The REALITY is that in Iraq and Afghanistan, our military has gone to greater lengths, AND has taken greater risks, to prevent civilian casualties than ANY military EVER has.

The terrorists are the ones who INTENTIONALLY target innocents on a daily basis, yet you imply that WE are the "baby-killing" bad guys?!?! Absolute rubbish.

In my opinion, people who think like that don't deserve the protection that our troops are dying to provide.

Man
"People who think like that". Boy, that is a fascist line if I've ever heard one.

Those troops aren't protecting me, they are protecting oil companies. Your propaganda screed about how we are just having a little Nintendo Fantasy War has already been proven ridiculous all over the web, with the last casuality estimates coming in at 100,000 dead Iraqis, MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

In addition, we have killed far, far more innocent Iraqis than the insurgents have.

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back


Iraqi civilian casualties mounting
By NANCY A. YOUSSEF
Knight Ridder Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis - most of them civilians - as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder.

According to the ministry, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 - when the ministry began compiling the data - until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,720 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.

While most of the dead are believed to be civilians, the data include an unknown number of police and Iraqi national guardsmen. Many Iraqi deaths, especially of insurgents, are never reported, so the actual number of Iraqis killed in fighting could be significantly higher.

During the same period, 432 American soldiers were killed.

Iraqi officials said the statistics proved that U.S. airstrikes intended for insurgents also were killing large numbers of innocent civilians. Some say these casualties are undermining popular acceptance of the American-backed interim government.

That suggests that more aggressive U.S. military operations, which the Bush administration has said are being planned to clear the way for nationwide elections scheduled for January, could backfire and strengthen the insurgency.

American military officials said "damage will happen" in their effort to wrest control of some areas from insurgents. They blamed the insurgents for embedding themselves in communities, saying that's endangering innocent people.


Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, an American military spokesman, said the insurgents were living in residential areas, sometimes in homes filled with munitions.


"As long as they continue to do that, they are putting the residents at risk," Boylan said. "We will go after them."


Boylan said the military conducted intelligence to determine whether a home housed insurgents before striking it. While damage would happen, the airstrikes were "extremely precise," he said. And he said that any attacks by the multinational forces were "in coordination with the interim government."

The Health Ministry statistics indicate that more children have been killed around Ramadi and Fallujah than in Baghdad, though those cities together have only one-fifth of the Iraqi capital's population.

According to the statistics, 59 children were killed in Anbar province - a hotbed of the Sunni Muslim insurgency that includes the cities of Ramadi and Fallujah - compared with 56 children in Baghdad. The ministry defines children as anyone younger than 12.

"When there are military clashes, we see innocent people die," said Dr. Walid Hamed, a member of the operations section of the Health Ministry, which compiles the statistics.


Juan Cole, a history professor at University of Michigan who specializes in Shiite Islam, said the widespread casualties meant that coalition forces already had lost the political campaign: "I think they lost the hearts and minds a long time ago."


"And they are trying to keep U.S. military casualties to a minimum in the run-up to the U.S. elections" by using airstrikes instead of ground forces, he said.


American military officials say they're targeting only terrorists and are aggressively working to spare innocent people nearby.


Nearly a third of the Iraqi dead - 1,122 - were killed in August, according to the statistics. May was the second deadliest month, with 749 Iraqis killed, and 319 were killed in June, the least violent month. Most of those killed lived in Baghdad; the ministry found that 1,068 had died in the capital.


Many Iraqis said they thought the numbers showed that the multinational forces disregarded their lives.


"The Americans do not care about the Iraqis. They don't care if they get killed, because they don't care about the citizens," said Abu Mohammed, 50, who was a major general in Saddam Hussein's army in Baghdad. "The Americans keep criticizing Saddam for the mass graves. How many graves are the Americans making in Iraq?"


At his fruit stand in southern Baghdad, Raid Ibraham, 24, theorized: "The Americans keep attacking the cities not to keep the security situation stable, but so they can stay in Iraq and control the oil."


Others blame the multinational forces for allowing security to disintegrate, inviting terrorists from everywhere and threatening the lives of everyday Iraqis.


"Anyone who hates America has come here to fight: Saddam's supporters, people who don't have jobs, other Arab fighters. All these people are on our streets," said Hamed, the ministry official. "But everyone is afraid of the Americans, not the fighters. And they should be."


Iraqi officials said about two-thirds of the Iraqi deaths were caused by multinational forces and police; the remaining third died from insurgent attacks. The ministry began separating attacks by multinational and police forces and insurgents June 10.


From that date until Sept. 10, 1,295 Iraqis were killed in clashes with multinational forces and police versus 516 killed in terrorist operations, the ministry said. The ministry defined terrorist operations as explosive devices in residential areas, car bombs or assassinations.


The ministry said it didn't have any statistics for the three provinces in the north: Arbil, Dohuk and Sulaimaniyah, ethnic Kurdish areas that generally have been more peaceful than the rest of the country.


The Health Ministry is the only organization that attempts to track deaths through government agencies. The U.S. military said it kept estimates, but it refused to release them. Ahmed al Rawi, the communications director of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad, said the organization didn't have the staffing to compile such information.




The Health Ministry reports to interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, whom the United States appointed in June.

Iraqi health and hospital officials agreed that the statistics captured only part of the death toll.

To compile the data, the Health Ministry calls the directors general of the 15 provinces and asks how many deaths related to the war were reported at hospitals. The tracking of such information has become decentralized since the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime because both hospitals and morgues issue death certificates now. And families often bury their dead without telling any government agencies or are treated at facilities that don't report to the government.

The ministry is convinced that nearly all of those reported dead are civilians, not insurgents. Most often, a family member wouldn't report it if his or her relative died fighting for rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia or another insurgent force, and the relative would be buried immediately, said Dr. Shihab Ahmed Jassim, another member of the ministry's operations section.

"People who participate in the conflict don't come to the hospital. Their families are afraid they will be punished," said Dr. Yasin Mustaf, the assistant manager of al Kimdi Hospital near Baghdad's poor Sadr City neighborhood. "Usually, the innocent people come to the hospital. That is what the numbers show."

The numbers also exclude those whose bodies were too mutilated to be recovered at car bombings or other attacks, the ministry said.

Ministry officials said they didn't know how big the undercount was. "We have nothing to do with politics," Jassim said.

Other independent organizations have estimated that 7,000 to 12,000 Iraqis have been killed since May 1, 2003, when President Bush declared an end to major combat operations.

Iraqis are aware of the casualties that are due to U.S. forces, and nearly everyone has a story to tell.

At al Kimdi Hospital, Dr. Mumtaz Jaber, a vascular surgeon, said that three months ago, his 3-year-old nephew, his sister and his brother-in-law were driving in Baghdad at about 9 p.m. when they saw an American checkpoint. His nephew was killed.

"They didn't stop fast enough. The Americans shot them immediately," Jaber said. "This is how so many die."

At the Baghdad morgue, Dr. Quasis Hassan Salem said he saw a family of eight brought in: three women, three men and two children. They were sleeping on their roof last month because it was hot inside. A military helicopter shot at them and killed them: "I don't know why."

U.S. officials said any allegations that soldiers had recklessly killed Iraqi citizens were investigated at the Iraqi Assistance Center in downtown Baghdad.

"There is no way to refute" such stories, said Robert Callahan, a spokesman at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. "All you can do is tell them the truth and hope it eventually will get through."

(Knight Ridder special correspondent Omar Jassim contributed to this report.)
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 11-08-2004, 08:56 AM
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RE: Bush's Bosses in Saudi Arabia stab USA in the back

Quote:
kvining - 11/8/2004 10:46 AM

"People who think like that". Boy, that is a fascist line if I've ever heard one.

Those troops aren't protecting me, they are protecting oil companies. Your propaganda screed about how we are just having a little Nintendo Fantasy War has already been proven ridiculous all over the web, with the last casuality estimates coming in at 100,000 dead Iraqis, MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

In addition, we have killed far, far more innocent Iraqis than the insurgents have.
Fascist?.... Hardly. I just believe that if someone is risking their life to protect me, I should at least APPRECIATE it, otherwise I am not worthy of their efforts. You obviously think you are "entitled" to it somehow. I'm not surprised.

They ARE protecting you, AND the rest of America, which DOES include oil companies. And unless you're prepared to start WALKING everywhere you go, and are prepared to heat your home with firewood next winter, you'd better be glad that they are doing so!

Casualty numbers vary widely depending on who's doing the counting, don't they! I've seen those numbers....and I've also seen where most of them are posted....I've also seen far more realistic numbers, from far less BIASED sources.

Mike

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