Arafat dead? - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 11:41 AM
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RE: Arafat dead?

Inblues - 11/5/2004 1:49 PM

When I said Muslim, I meant on people not on religion.
"Muslim" does not = "Arab", and vice-versa.

With every post, you provide further evidence that you have no idea what you're arguing about.


Yes, I'm STILL an insensitive Libertarian jerk.

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post #42 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 12:15 PM
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RE: Arafat dead?

What alot of people are not touching on here, is that Arafat was offered a bordered homeland for his people on several occasions, including at the time of Israel's creation. Arafat has done a terrible diservice to his people, not wanting a homeland as much as wanting Israel's destruction.

You've gotta love the Israeli minister of defense. When asked if Arafat's request for burial in Palestine would be honored, he replied -Absolutely not, Jewish kings are buried in Palestine, not Arab terrorists.
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post #43 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 02:19 PM
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RE: Arafat dead?

mikemover-the sequel - 11/5/2004 11:38 AM

Inblues - 11/5/2004 12:41 PM

Someone of character and priniciple needs to lead these people out of their cycle of evil.
And that SOMEONE you referring to I guess are American leaders?

The biggest EVIL from my point of view are your leaders.
If America and its leaders weren't living to the south of you, you most likely would not be allowed, or maybe not even alive, to sit at your computer and spread your misguided point of view.


Actually they would probably have a lot more land. Sayin.
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post #44 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 03:43 PM
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RE: Arafat dead?

"That land NEVER belonged to Jews, and Jews didn't own a single square inch of land ever before "

Sounds like a racist comment to me, read it carefully, again yourself. I could be wrong but I detect a bit of it.

The hate grows so deep that it was beyond a land issue many years ago. I don't think they want land. I think they want genocide of the other's culture. If it - by way of extremely remote chance - is about land, their dying leader could have settled years ago as well. He didn't. But it is your choice to continue supporting such a mindset so you are just as responsible for deaths resulting. I'm finished with this topic. Go back and read my last post. Your people really need a leader with true integrity. You would do the world more good demanding that after he dies than supporting another disgrace.

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post #45 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 06:55 PM
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RE: Arafat dead?

Easy,... all of you.

This whole mess was started when arafat was called a terrorist and someone defended him (or somethig like that).

I have Israeli and Palestinian friends they are cool with each other and both agree that there are ways of settling this. And we all agree that Arafat was no good for the region,... come on,... the guy sold out a long time ago. (No debate here, we all KNOW he did)

Think about it. look at the US (just using it as an example) there are hundreds of types of cultures and religions there but they all seem to get along pretty fine (errr maybe I should have used Canada as an example instead,... never mind). Do you get my point? An eye for an eye will NEVER save that land (no matter who "claims" to have rights to it.

If you all (palestians and Israelis) skipped a generation and "modified" your history books you'd find that your grand kids would get along just fine.

I know that would never happen, but the killing and sensless violence has got to stop, it leads nowhere.

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post #46 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 07:04 PM
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RE: Arafat dead?

Alright, lets try this just for fun.

Assume that Arafat is a model of peace-loving good intent and wants nothing but peace, love and flowers for everybody.

What has he done to accomplish that?

Explain to me how this man of peace is empowering his people to determine their own destiny through human rights, freedom of expression, popular vote, and representative democracy.

Show me his budget, where he gets his money and how he determines its disbursement and to whom it is disbursed.

In free societies, the world knows these things. You know, like say....oh....Canada? In despotic rule, one man knows these things.

Convince me that despotic rule by a kleptocrat is best for the Palestinian people.

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post #47 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 08:07 AM
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RE: Arafat dead?

Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning
the Solution of the Jewish Question
in Europe and
the Participation of the NMO in the War
on the Side of Germany

It is often stated in the speeches and utterances of the leading statesmen of National Socialist Germany that a prerequisite of the New Order in Europe requires the radical solution of the Jewish question through evacuation (“Jew-free Europe�).

The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish people, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historic boundaries.

The solving in this manner of the Jewish problem, thus bringing with it once and for all the liberation of the Jewish people, is the objective of the political activity and the years-long struggle of the Israeli freedom movement, the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Palestine.

The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,
3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively lake part in the war on Germany’s side.

This offer by the NMO, covering activity in the military, political and information fields, in Palestine and, according to our determined preparations, outside Palestine, would be connected to the military training and organizing of Jewish manpower in Europe, under the leadership and command of the NMO. These military units would take part in the fight to conquer Palestine, should such a front be decided upon.

The indirect participation of the Israeli freedom movement in the New Order in Europe, already in the preparatory stage, would be linked with a positive-radical solution of the European Jewish problem in conformity with the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Jewish people. This would extraordinarily strengthen the moral basis of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

The cooperation of the Israeli freedom movement would also be along the lines of one of the last speeches of the German Reich Chancellor, in which Herr Hitler emphasized that he would utilize every combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England.

A brief general view of the formation, essence, and activity of the NMO in Palestine:

The NMO developed partly out of the Jewish self-defense in Palestine and the Revisionist movement (New Zionist Organization), with which the NMO was loosely connected through the person of Mr. V. Jabotinsky until his death.

The pro-English attitude of the Revisionist Organization in Palestine, which prevented the renewal of the personal union, led in the autumn of this year to a complete break between it and the NMO as well as to a thereupon following split in the Revisionist movement.

The goal of the NMO is the establishment of the Jewish state within its historic borders.

The NMO, in contrast to all Zionist trends, rejects colonizatory infiltration as the only means of making accessible and gradually taking possession of the fatherland and practices its slogan, the struggle and the sacrifice, as the only true means for the conquest and liberation of Palestine.

On account of its militant character and its anti-English disposition the NMO is forced, under constant persecutions by the English administration, to exercise its political activity and the military training of its members in Palestine in secret.

The NMO, whose terrorist activities began as early as the autumn of the year 1936, became, after the publication of the British White Papers, especially prominent in the summer of 1939 through successful intensification of its terroristic activity and sabotage of English properly. At that lime these activities, as well as daily secret radio broadcasts, were noticed and discussed by virtually the entire world press.

The NMO maintained independent political offices in Warsaw, Paris. London and New York until the beginning of the war.

The office in Warsaw was mainly concerned with the military organization and training of the national Zionist youth and was closely connected with the Jewish masseswho, especially in Poland, sustained and enthusiastically supported, in every manner, the fight of the NMO in Palestine. Two newspapers were published in Warsaw (The Deed and Liberated Jerusalem): these were organs of the NMO.

The office in Warsaw maintained close relations with the former Polish government and those military circles, who brought greatest sympathy and understanding towards the aims of the NMO. Thus, in the year 1939 selected groups of NMO members were sent from Palestine to Poland, where their military training was completed in barracks by Polish officers.

The negotiations, for the purpose of activating and concertizing their aid, took place between the NMO and the Polish government in Warsaw – the evidence of which can easily be found in the archives of the former Polish government – were terminated because of the beginning of the war.

The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in its ideology and structure.

The fighting capacity of the NMO could never be paralyzed or seriously weakened, neither through strong defensive measures by the English administration and the Arabs, nor by those of the Jewish socialists.

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post #48 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 08:20 AM
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RE: Arafat dead?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedomfighter.
Yitzhak Shamir. I am sure it sounds familiar to some of you. Technically he is still wanted by the British as a terrorist I beleive.

Stern gang or Lehi ((Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") group.

Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. It was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel). Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later.

Lehi was known for its Anti-Imperialist ideology. It considered the British rule of Palestine to be an illegal occupation, and concentrated its attacks mainly against British targets (unlike the other underground movements, which were also involved in fighting against Arab militant groups). Lehi prisoners captured by the British generally refused to present a defence when brought to trial in British courts. They would only read out statements in which they declared that the court, representing an occupying force, had no jurisdiction over them and is illegal. For the same reason, Lehi prisoners refused to plea for amnesty, even when it was clear that this would have them spared from the death penalty. In one case two Lehi men killed themselves in prison to deprive the British of the ability to hang them.

Late in 1940, the Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

Apart from the small number of high-profile operations, Lehi mostly conducted small-scale operations such as assassination of British soldiers and police officers and, on occasion, Jewish "collaborators". Another operation (1947) was to send bombs in the mail to many British politicians. Other operations included sabotaging infrastructure targets: bridges, railroads, and oil refineries. Lehi financed their operations from private donations (not always voluntary) and robbing banks.

Lehi was formally dissolved after the state of Israel was created, but continued to operate especially in Jerusalem until it was forcefully broken up after the Bernadotte assassination. Members of the Lehi founded a political party known as "Fighters," and Yellin-Mor was elected to the first Knesset, but the party was short-lived.

Noted Lehi attacks:

* November 6, 1944 - Lehi assassinates Lord Moyne, a British government representative blamed for the White Paper immigration policy, in Cairo. This act rocked the British government, and outraged Winston Churchill the British Prime Minister. The two assassins were captured, sentenced to death, and executed.

* April 9, 1948 - Lehi and Irgun attack Deir Yassin (see Deir Yassin massacre).

* September 17, 1948, Lehi assassinated the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte. Bernadotte's insistence on the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes was the cause for his murder. The assassination was directed by Yehoshua Zetler and carried out by a four-man team led by Meshulam Markover. The fatal shots were fired by Yehoshua Cohen. Lehi leaders Nathan Yellin-Mor and Matitiahu Schmulevitz were arrested two months after the murder. Most of the suspects involved were released immediately and all of them were granted general amnesty on the 14th of February, 1949.

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post #49 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 08:26 AM
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RE: Arafat dead?

Botnst - 11/5/2004 10:04 PM

Explain to me how this man of peace is empowering his people to determine their own destiny through human rights, freedom of expression, popular vote, and representative democracy.

In free societies, the world knows these things.
are the palestinians looking for a 'free society'? Do they have to?

Look, WE might take the proverbial 'rights to be self-evident...', but last time I checked, that's in OUR government structure, not that of all of these countries we're saving. Your well-established Millian paternalistic utilitarianism requires a common desired end, and I'd suggest the cultures might not have one.

Look at the native american v. settlers situation. using terrorist tactics, the ruthless animistofacist terrorist native americans attacked the peaceful settlers who had every right to the land. Please. Reducing palestinians to terrorists and israelis to peaceful nation-building global citizens is blindness.

as with the air and oil filters in their cars, most americans forget to change their cultural filter.

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post #50 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 08:52 AM
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RE: Arafat dead?

I for one, believe there are plenty of peaceful Palestinians who just want to raise their kids and live their lives not unlike the rest of us. Unfortunately, they've been victimized by the likes of Arafat, who says what others want to hear, but does what suits his personal agenda. That agenda is clearly the elimination of the state of Israel. Israeli leaders have made serious attempts at compromise toward peaceful coexistence with Palestinians. Arafat has rebuffed those attempts and promoted a campaign of terrorism instead. What steps are appropriate in the face of an enemy who is determined to end your existence? Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? Who are the true victims of Arafat? You decide.

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