Mr. Bush’s Supporters - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 07:48 AM
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2003
Vehicle: 300d, 409d
Location: Denver, CO USA
Posts: 440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Quote:
MS Fowler - 11/4/2004 5:58 AM

How do you justify NOT acting? Taking action to defend the defenseless is no vice. Ignoring rampant evil is no virtue. No, we can't do it all, but that is no excuse for not doing something.
Why do you think I owe you an explanation? Did I ask to explain your views? People are bound by their own conscience. The attempt to control another person's conscience is not a Christian virtue--although, I will admit there are many Chrisitans who feel its their duty to try to control other's opinions
There are lots of justifications for not acting. One that immediately jumps to mind is 'Turn the other cheek'
I don't think you owe me any explanation at all. And I'd definitely not interested in controlling other people's consciences. I am asking out of curiousity as a person who used to be an evangelical who spent lots of time thinking about the relationship between my religious commitments and the state. I believe that it is inconsistent to be a Christian and believe in the right of aggressive wars, so I'd like to hear from a thinking Christian about how those two are put together in the case of Bush and Iraq.
kerry edwards is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 09:59 AM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

You have no concept of the term you throw around so marxsystically. Give it up.
DeadNephews is offline  
post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 11:06 AM
BenzWorld Junior Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1988 420SEL
Location: Forth Worth Texas
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Here is something to chew on:

1. The war was (is) partially about the flow of oil into the free market. So what? I would rather see us topple a meglomaniacal dictator like Hussein than let him get his hands on all the oil in the region, which was always part of his goals in establishing the "New Babylon".

2. We may keep bases there. Again, so what? We stationed troops in Germany after the fall of Hitler, to establish order and also to protect our interests from the USSR. Bases in Iraq would be a perfect place to operate from to confront the war on terror and to insure that oil from that area is not disrupted.

Be realistic, oil at a reasonable price is what keeps the world economy (especially the US) afloat. Whatever measures we need to implement to insure that the free market is fed with crude is acceptable to me and should be to any thinking US citizen. Alternative energy sources should be researched and implemented WHEN THEY ARE FEASIBLE. We cannot let our economy fall apart because medieval countries decide that they want to hamstring us due to greed or religious fanatacism. We also should drill in ANWR and allow new refineries to be built in the US, both of which will bring down the price of crude and refined products.
[:)]

Shoot Low Boys, They're Riding Shetland Ponies
Jake is offline  
post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 12:48 PM
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2003
Vehicle: 300d, 409d
Location: Denver, CO USA
Posts: 440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

I've read those arguments and understand them, even though I disagree with them. What I really want to do is understand Bush's evangelical supporters. There's a prima facie presumption that Christians are against violence and war. I'd like to hear a thoughtful response from one of Bush's Christian supporters on the issue of how they reconcile their Christian Ethic with Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive wars.
kerry edwards is offline  
post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 01:51 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Quote:
kerry edwards - 11/4/2004 2:48 PM

I've read those arguments and understand them, even though I disagree with them. What I really want to do is understand Bush's evangelical supporters. There's a prima facie presumption that Christians are against violence and war.
Are Christians against violence and war in general? I had never had that impression. I thought the more radical element of Christianity, like many other religions, advocated conversion of others to the faith, by force if necessary. There are all kinds of historical precedence for this. I'm not saying that's what the US did in Iraq, by any means, but my point is, we've run a couple of world wars under more openly Christian administrations than the one we have now. I doubt it's any more a conflict now than it was then.
webperm is offline  
post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 02:37 PM
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2003
Vehicle: 300d, 409d
Location: Denver, CO USA
Posts: 440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Quote:
webwench - 11/4/2004 3:51 PM
Are Christians against violence and war in general? I had never had that impression. I thought the more radical element of Christianity, like many other religions, advocated conversion of others to the faith, by force if necessary. There are all kinds of historical precedence for this. I'm not saying that's what the US did in Iraq, by any means, but my point is, we've run a couple of world wars under more openly Christian administrations than the one we have now. I doubt it's any more a conflict now than it was then.
For about the first 300 yrs of Christianity, Christians were forbidden from serving in the military. It was thought to be sinful.
WWII can easily be justified on traditional Christian just war theory because they were defensive wars in response to enemy attacks. It is much more difficult, if not impossible, to fit Bush's pre-emptive war doctrine into just war theory.
kerry edwards is offline  
post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 03:01 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Quote:
kerry edwards - 11/4/2004 2:37 PM

For about the first 300 yrs of Christianity, Christians were forbidden from serving in the military. It was thought to be sinful.
WWII can easily be justified on traditional Christian just war theory because they were defensive wars in response to enemy attacks. It is much more difficult, if not impossible, to fit Bush's pre-emptive war doctrine into just war theory.
You mean before Constantine got ahold of it?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 05:11 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

There is no Christian belief which all who profess faith must believe. There's no handshake. Heck, there's a polytheistic sect started in America that calls itself christian and there are others, like Spong who seem to have no firm belief about anything at all.

The first Christians didn't call themselves Christians. That came later and from outside of the Jesus cult. They were Jewish and they'd probably not especially care for the extraordinary innovations to their religion that has grown up from their most humble of beginnings.

Being Jewish and at that time, they probably had no big problem with violence.

A more interesting questions for Christians to ask is what would Jesus do? Would he want us to kill bad guys? The safe answer is, "No". But the neat thing about Jesus is that he didn't usually take the obvious path nor the easy answer. So the answer will most likely depend on what each of us thinks of Jesus and God and all that.

For example, a pacifist who practices his belief out of a desire for personal recognition probably wouldn't get much of a blessing from Jesus.
Botnst is offline  
post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 05:19 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

Quote:
Botnst - 11/4/2004 5:11 PM

A more interesting questions for Christians to ask is what would Jesus do? Would he want us to kill bad guys? The safe answer is, "No". But the neat thing about Jesus is that he didn't usually take the obvious path nor the easy answer.
It seems to me that if you don't follow the teachings of Christ, then you probably shouldn't call yourself a "Christian", unless the name "Christian" is actually derived from another source of which I'm unaware. I don't recall anything about 'vanquish thine enemy' in the NT, although my familiarity with said text is admittedly fleeting.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2004, 05:23 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
danwatt's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2004
Vehicle: 1990 300SE
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Posts: 1,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to danwatt
RE: Mr. Bush’s Supporters

The Pope came out against the Iraq war and I believe he was against Bush.

Sayin'.
danwatt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome