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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 03:32 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 4:48 PM

But if you start from the proposition that a fetus is a human life with rights and abortion is murder what is the rational for the incest/rape exception.

Is a human conceived under these circumstances less human? Are we endowed with less rights based on who are father is?
Well, koop, I don't start with the proposition that abortion is murder. I recognize the dilemma for those who do, and that very consideration is what makes me say that elective abortions really shouldn't be publicly funded. But when I think about some underage kid who has been forced into pregnancy due to incest and who probably has no money, being too young to work, and likely no access to health insurance, well, it's a harsh thing any way you look at it, morally speaking.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 04:22 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

I didn't mean that "you" directed towards you specifically.

I don't like the use of the word "elective" in this context. Makes it sound like a face lift. When you get right down to it, all surgery is elective, no one makes you have any surgery, you might die without that bypass but no one is forceing you into the operating room.

I don't think we should pick and choose which medical procedures are funded based on morality. I'm of the opinion that once the door to the examining room closes what goes on in there is between a patient and the doctor.

If we are going to have a system that pays for health care (medicade/medicare) the procedures should be left up to the doctor and the patient.

In other words, if medicare will pay for pre natal care, and delivery expenses or any thing else in the reproductive field, abortion should be fair game too.

Don't want the gov involved, don't pay for any of it.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 5:22 PM

Don't want the gov involved, don't pay for any of it.
Doesn't Kerry want the government involved? Doesn't he want national (government) health care? If so, then the government will decide what is and is not "elective"...

See, this issue goes pretty deep.


Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 2:43 PM

"Now see if you can you can follow me on this?"

Was that supposed to be blinding insight?
Nope, just a little humor. You do know what humor is, don't you?
See, that was sarcasm...

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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 05:13 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
jamminjames - 10/29/2004 5:07 PM

Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 5:22 PM

Don't want the gov involved, don't pay for any of it.
Doesn't Kerry want the government involved? Doesn't he want national (government) health care? If so, then the government will decide what is and is not "elective"...

See, this issue goes pretty deep.


Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 2:43 PM

"Now see if you can you can follow me on this?"

Was that supposed to be blinding insight?
Nope, just a little humor. You do know what humor is, don't you?
See, that was sarcasm...
Maybe you didn't watch the debates or listen to what Kerry proposed for health care. It did not involve national health care. Now what is your position?

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 05:13 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
jamminjames - 10/29/2004 4:07 PM

Doesn't Kerry want the government involved? Doesn't he want national (government) health care?
Ummmmm -- no. This was all explained during the debates. You really should have watched like the rest of us.

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 06:01 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 4:48 PM

But if you start from the proposition that a fetus is a human life with rights and abortion is murder what is the rational for the incest/rape exception.

Is a human conceived under these circumstances less human? Are we endowed with less rights based on who are father is?
Well said. I'd argue that, assuming life begins at conception, that life should have the same rights as anyone else-- which includes the right to life.

Shameful how the most helpless in our society (a society that champions the protection of the helpless) are routinely destroyed through abortion.

I'd also state that I don't see any compelling reason for abortion-- rape is evil, but life is present just the same. Who suffers the most in that case? I'd say the unborn child that ends up in the trash. So much for its rights.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
GermanStar - 10/29/2004 6:13 PM

Quote:
jamminjames - 10/29/2004 4:07 PM

Doesn't Kerry want the government involved? Doesn't he want national (government) health care?
Ummmmm -- no. This was all explained during the debates. You really should have watched like the rest of us.
Actually I taped them - all four. I'm surprised that you people didn't see what he was proposing. Yes, he said that you would have a choice - government health care or some other provider. Now take this a step further... Private providers will be paying more in taxes - Kerry said so (in the debates). Since they pay more, they will transfer that extra overhead to guess who - you! Since the cost of private health care will be so high, thanx to Kerry, the only alternative you'll have is his lower cost government (oops, sorry - national) health care. then he gets to decide what's covered. At my expense because my taxes are paying for it.

Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the best.

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 07:39 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

I think you need to watch the tape again, if you can bear it...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 07:44 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
sflori - 10/29/2004 8:01 PM

Quote:
koop - 10/29/2004 4:48 PM

But if you start from the proposition that a fetus is a human life with rights and abortion is murder what is the rational for the incest/rape exception.

Is a human conceived under these circumstances less human? Are we endowed with less rights based on who are father is?
Well said. I'd argue that, assuming life begins at conception, that life should have the same rights as anyone else-- which includes the right to life.

Shameful how the most helpless in our society (a society that champions the protection of the helpless) are routinely destroyed through abortion.

I'd also state that I don't see any compelling reason for abortion-- rape is evil, but life is present just the same. Who suffers the most in that case? I'd say the unborn child that ends up in the trash. So much for its rights.

I'm interested in this, Stefano, because I think it is a difficult logical problem. If a baby is still in the uterus it can be treated as excess, inconvenient tissue, but once outside of the Mom's body it has inalienable rights. I understand your position, the Catholic Church's--its the only rational and consistent argument concerning abortion that doesn't also include infanticide.

What intrigues me is how folks come to the viability argument. It used to be that it was a viable person if it could live unassisted outside of the mom. But we're really good at helping premies survive and there is no reason to believe we wont some day figure out how to bring a zygote to term artificially.

At what point in the developmental process would it be okay to kill that tissue? Zygote? Blastula? 5 cm? 20 cm? 2 years of age? These are difficult questions that society is careening toward much faster than taboos and morals and laws are capable of dealing with.

The easiest way to deal with them is the traditional one of demonizing those with whom one disagrees.
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 09:21 PM
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RE: Oh, the tangled web we weave...

Quote:
The easiest way to deal with them is the traditional one of demonizing those with whom one disagrees.
That's funny. I don't consider that "dealing" with the problem in any sense whatsoever.

I know, I know, you are being sarcastic.

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