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post #81 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 10:18 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

...if'n the Frogs were fer it, he'd be agin it.
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post #82 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 10:55 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

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kvining - 10/27/2004 9:38 AM

Mr. Botsnst, your entire system of logic collapses when one realizes we are not hunting and chasing the terrorists ....
Yes we are. That being the case, your assertion fails.
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post #83 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 11:02 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

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JimSmith - 10/29/2004 11:47 AM

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Botnst - 10/27/2004 7:45 AM
I've been on to your methodology like, forever, dude. You feign reasonableness and obfuscate by verbosity.

Its real simple, doesn't require big words or lots of them.

You assert lying based on the assumption that a false statement is an intentional attempt at deception. In contrast, I require proof.

Note my consistency in that: I have never accused M. Kerry of lying, even when stuff he has said are obviously false. What do you think, would M. Kerry lie to become elected president?

B
Bot,

I don't believe I "feign reasonableness" to make my points, and I also don't believe, like you and George W. Bush, that the realm of international relations is fully defined by the cowboy movie script formula. ...
Oh, you can read my mind. I see the world in a cowboy script. Now there's a denigrating assumption of my intellectual capacity that I don't think I have made of you. For example, I think it takes better than normal intelligence for you to obfuscate with vocabulary and feigned reasonableness. You're quite good at it.

Even more, I have been astonished by your occasional displays of mental telepathy and here I am amazed again. Perhaps you might be interested in a guest spot with Art Bell?
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post #84 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 11:42 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

Quote:
Botnst - 10/29/2004 10:55 AM

Quote:
kvining - 10/27/2004 9:38 AM

Mr. Botsnst, your entire system of logic collapses when one realizes we are not hunting and chasing the terrorists ....
Yes we are. That being the case, your assertion fails.
I suppose it's easy to say and hard to disprove that we are not hunting and chasing the terrorists. But judge by the results and the disparity in what the leadership says.

Bush said we have captured or killed "75% of the top leadership of al-Qaeda", up from the previous estimate of 2/3. In actual fact, we have caught or killed 3 of 27 known leaders.

In that case, it's obvious to me we are not particularly successful at "hunting and chasing" the terrorists. And the president is lying about it.

OBK #35

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post #85 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 11:46 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

Hell, now we are supplying them with all the arms they need to equip the family members of those 100,000 people we killed who are now being recruited by al-Queda. Apparently Old300d, we just don't get it. We should just keep our mouth shut and watch their brillant plan unfold. So far the plan is: we let their leader escape with his terror organization intact, to a country that contains his friends. next we invade a country where he isn't at, causing millions of tons of weapons to flood the worlds mass markets so he can buy them or steal them. So what's the next phase of the plan? Botsnst, I can hardly wait until you can tell us after it happens. My guess is, they will smuggle in a few knapsack loads of RDX and blow up a high school with it - and then Botsnst will tell us the reason why it is a part of a good plan! Oh goody! Lets "draw in those terrorists".
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post #86 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 11:55 AM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

Actually Bot, I appologize. I should not have suggested you buy the cowboy movie script. I retract that statement because as you pointed out, I cannot know that to be true, and after thinking about it for a minute, I agree I made a mistake.

I also never suggested, or meant to imply there was an intelligence deficit, with you or the President. In fact, I think the President hides behind the image of being a regular guy quite a bit. It makes him seem more forgivable when he "mis-states the facts" because, like all of the guys we BS with at the bar or around the water cooler at work, we make statements that we believe, but kind of know are unfounded. Then, when we are confronted with facts that counter our statements, we can change the story a little so it isn't so personally painful to back up. And we continue to do the same thing because it actually becomes painless after a few cycles. And, just like those guys, Bush should not be President if he is that regular a guy.

But I think this is a carefully crafted image, and he knows damn well what he is doing. Which is why I am convinced he is lying. People in power do it because they learn that the bulk of the poeople listening don't know any better, regardless of what the subject is and what is being said. To tell the truth puts them at the same level of understanding as the person in power. That is threatening to people in power and they resist making equals. So they lie. It is easy, and since the bulk of the people didn't know any better, and are too busy with their daily routine to bother to check, the powerful conclude they are better off lying than being truthful.

I also think you have displayed remarkable mental capabilities here as well. That you use them the way you do, tossing a chunk of red meat to the lesser animals here that follow your themes when you feel they are getting weak in their support of the killing for oil initiative, or offering a genuinely thoughtful argument, is your choice.

Your belief that killing indescriminately for oil is justified because you believe we need to control it, even if that means we pay more for it than it was worth on the open market before we began the killing, is at the bottom of your thought process as you approach any political thread. This doctrine, alone, I suspect is not very well supported. But when you cloak it in anti-French slogans, or dress it up with some "anti-terrorists in Iraq that were about to attack America" rhetoric, or drip a little compassion for the Iraqi people on it with the "Middle East freedom and democracy must prevail even if we have to force it down their throats at gunpoint, and Saddam had to go to free the Iraqi people who were being slaughtered by the tens of thousands at his hands," you avoid being confronted on the subject directly and indirectly gain support.

Bush lies. All people in power do. But Bush's lies are costing Americans lives. Clinton's lies centered on getting a blowjob from a fat girl. I cannot believe how important that was to Americans, but it really only hurt Clinton and his family. Yet it was a source of unreal emotional reactions around the world. Americans villifying him and the rest of the world wondering what the hell the problem was and laughing at our Puritan emotional reactions.

Now we have a liar in office who's lies have yet to reveal anything noteworthy about the adventures of his penis, and instead they cause the deaths of Americans by the thousands (we are working on our second thousand now)and Iraqis by the tens of thousands. Yet a large percentage of Americans are vigorously supporting this man. Would they stand behind him if he was found to be lying about where he dipped his dickie last night? Can't say, but from the perspective of the rest of the world, we appear to be barbaric primates preoccupied with our genitalia and unaware of the consequences of where we shit. To ourselves and to others.

So, I appologize if my post suggested you were somehow lacking in intellectual capacity. I also withdraw the notion that you subscribe to the cowboy movie script simplicity that George W. Bush uses to fashion the version of world order he seeks to impose on us all. Jim

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post #87 of 87 (permalink) Old 10-29-2004, 08:26 PM
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RE: So who are acting like Nazis?

That's cool, and thanks.

I don't agree that we are killing indescrimantly, though I do understand how one could make that argument when noncombatants die. In modern wars, I understand that more noncombatants ahve always died. This does not excuse it, but it does offer context for the tragedy of it.

Concerning the number of dead, I assume its right, +/- 60,000. That is, it could be as high as 160K and probably no lower than 40K. I don't think anybody knows with any accuracy and the 100K thing is impressive copy. I doubt we'll ever know definitively. But I have no doubt that politicians of every sort will opine for decades and many dissertations will be written about it. Depending on the assumptions going in, the numbers will swing wildly. Whatever the cost in lives, it will be a terrible burden.

Look to the thread started by Djugurba if you want to know how I came to the conclusion I have reached. I'd be delighted to see every other person who opines explain in as great detail and with such complete dissection their fundamental beliefs. Begin with basic premises and bring us stepwise to the present. Not just you, if you so choose, but anybody who would take exception or agree with me. That will help us understand with greater clarity why we believe as we do.
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