more jobs - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 10:19 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: more jobs

Quote:
crash9 - 10/22/2004 11:39 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 10/22/2004 10:29 AM

Okay, since say, 1400 AD the lot of western society has improved markedly from feudalism and slavery-based economies to free societies with government in the hands of the people. The curve of personal wealth is there for all to see. It is directly dependent upon free market trade which created the wealth which we now enjoy. Free market thinking leads directly to demand for power. Aristocracies died as a direct result. That same force has toppled various attempts at statist control of politics and markets. It is still working today.

Free markets do not ask that people have any particular morality other than honesty. Other systems ask that you keep your eye on some idea of greater good of society. This is religion in a modernist disguise.
Yeah – that’s why in a way there is ultimately always a free market. Might be hard to see over fifty or a hundred years, but in the course of this history, or evolution, things get very extended at one extreme or another. Starts out well for a few – billionaires of Moscow and SE Asia – then becomes regulated (or that’s been our history) and now we’ve taken the restrictions off again to turn control over to the moneyed self-interested. They say that Keynes had another book, but died before he explained it – so I’m asking “Mr. Friedman, where’s your other book�.
Fill me in. How did the trust busting legislation win support to control the moneyed interests of yesteryear? Seems to me that now the West is evolving into a New York of 1900, and that the moneyed interests are so international that any national law or restriction cannot control them. They will just develop the economies of Eastern Europe and Asia, and we’ll be reduced to becoming the English.
Sometimes what's good for the long-term interest of humanity is not good for the self-interest of a nation. Protectionism always hurts the nation that enacts the protection. The planet is replete with examples. Its a matter of degree.


In contrast, free markets may hurt one nation or neither nation. Usually the nation that gets hurt has some sort of wage or price or trade controls or taxes that are badly skewed compared to the partner's taxation. History is full of those examples, too.
Botnst is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 11:03 AM
Cruise Control
 
Zeitgeist's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: '87 300TD/'90 300D/'94 Quattro/'89 Vanagon TDI/'01 EV Weekender VR6
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 51,730
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Unsustainable

"Free" Markets are the new religious hoakum. They don't exist and never will, so let's just bag the bogus euphemisms. The Free Market fundamentalism that's held sway for the last 30 years is actually quite revealing. Business interests left to their own devices will inevitably shrink market choices via consolidation and collusion, leaving consumers with less power and lousier service. The new "homeless" corporate interests of today, if left to their own devices will despoil their surroundings and exploit their workforce, then move on in search of other "resources" to devour. In the global 'race to the bottom', market fiefdoms popup amongst an emergent oligarchy that uses political influence to further its own agenda--again, lending lie to the notion that any commercial market is actually "free".

This is the "new" capitalist reality, which doesn't sound too much different than the old one, except it's a much more sophisticated and organized octopus, with very few tentacles attached to notions of god and country, and thus none of Mr Smith's moral imperatives. This is why the new global corporate capitalism is, and will continue to fail at living up to your rosy scenarios in a majority of the Third World settings. These folks are leaving rural subsistence living to enter into a hellish urban squalor with few opportunities for self-determination or advancement. Given that there will always be another country willing to forgo environmental, health or labor standards, economic pressures maintain the squalid status quo in perpetuity, rather than producing real progress. Meanwhile back at the ranch, up here in the "first" world, our living standards continue to decline as living wage jobs are outsourced at an alarming rate, with few if any commensurate replacements. Folks up here have to make do with less income, so they succumb to price pressures to purchase cheap overseas sweatshop products, which only fuels and accelerates the drive to outsource--vicious cycle.

Zeitgeist is offline  
post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 11:28 AM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Unsustainable

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 10/22/2004 1:03 PM

vicious cycle.
humanity chokes - the earth reclaims itself - IT'S A FREE MARKET
crash9 is offline  
post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 11:39 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: more jobs

The idea that protectionism "hurts a nation" is debatable. The 50s and 60s, when protectionism reigned in this country, were probably the most prosperous times the middle class in this country ever had. It think its the usual story - extreme protectionism leads to economic disaster, and so does totally free markets. We have to stop listening to extremists. At the heart of it is our winner-take-all form of government. It pushes us to one extreme or the other, no matter what we are talking about, when what we really need is consensus. If you look at the Europeans, they really work these trade agreements. There are clauses in them that allow protectionism or allow over-protectionism by a trading partner to be policed. The people in economic sectors that are being gored, make their voices heard thru parties that are members of governing coalitions. We, on the other hand, simply do everything by whatever extremist agenda currently holds power, and those affected, if they are on the other side of the political equation, tough luck. Anyone who knows the story on Bush and the steel tariffs knows what I am talking about.



FeelTheLove is offline  
post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 12:37 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: more jobs

Quote:
kvining - 10/22/2004 1:39 PM

The idea that protectionism "hurts a nation" is debatable. The 50s and 60s, when protectionism reigned in this country, were probably the most prosperous times the middle class in this country ever had. It think its the usual story - extreme protectionism leads to economic disaster, and so does totally free markets. We have to stop listening to extremists. At the heart of it is our winner-take-all form of government. It pushes us to one extreme or the other, no matter what we are talking about, when what we really need is consensus. If you look at the Europeans, they really work these trade agreements. There are clauses in them that allow protectionism or allow over-protectionism by a trading partner to be policed. The people in economic sectors that are being gored, make their voices heard thru parties that are members of governing coalitions. We, on the other hand, simply do everything by whatever extremist agenda currently holds power, and those affected, if they are on the other side of the political equation, tough luck. Anyone who knows the story on Bush and the steel tariffs knows what I am talking about.


It hurt us in the long-run because it in effect, subsidized corporate inefficiency. Like Detriot. Like the steel industry. When protections got lifted, suddenly the Japanese cars and (ahem) German cars came into this country with far suprior design and manufacturing at reasonable prices. Steel came in at reasonable prices. Etc. Those industries and otehrs are still payin gthe price for nearly three decades of protectionism.

Also, look at the protectionism that lots of latin america has. Ostensibly to protect thier industry. Cars, for example, are hugely tariffed. When was the last time you drove a real nice Chilean car? The people of Chile (for example) would benefit tremendously by reduction or elimination of tariffs on cars--keeping more of their own money instead of giving it to the government.

I'd love to see our gov go tariff-free. Imagine the wealth that we would keep in our own pockets rather than give to Uncle to protect some fatcat industry from competition. Talk about corporate welfare. Tariffs are the ultimate.
Botnst is offline  
post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 12:50 PM
Cruise Control
 
Zeitgeist's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: '87 300TD/'90 300D/'94 Quattro/'89 Vanagon TDI/'01 EV Weekender VR6
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 51,730
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
RE: more jobs

No industrial powerhouse has ever achieved its first tier status by practicing "free" trade policies. Every one of them nurtured and protected their native industries, allowing them to achieve a mature and robust self-sufficiency. If protectionism produces inefficiency by necessity, how come both the Germans and Japanese were able to remain efficient and innovative all the while maintaining strict protectionist policies?
Zeitgeist is offline  
post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 01:14 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: more jobs

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 10/22/2004 2:50 PM

No industrial powerhouse has ever achieved its first tier status by practicing "free" trade policies. Every one of them nurtured and protected their native industries, allowing them to achieve a mature and robust self-sufficiency. If protectionism produces inefficiency by necessity, how come both the Germans and Japanese were able to remain efficient and innovative all the while maintaining strict protectionist policies?
Sure. But that level which we have achieved has allowed the human condition vast improvement over our feudal/peasant/serf/slave ancestors. It would be speculation to imagine how much better we would be if that were a strictly linear relationship. But, I wouldn't want to be accused of hubris.
Botnst is offline  
post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 02:38 PM
Cruise Control
 
Zeitgeist's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: '87 300TD/'90 300D/'94 Quattro/'89 Vanagon TDI/'01 EV Weekender VR6
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 51,730
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
RE: more jobs

Yes, but your response doesn't address my question.
Zeitgeist is offline  
post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 06:03 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: more jobs

Okay, how're they doing now compared to the USA? Who has the greater GDP growth rate now, or over any 20-year segment in the past 60 years? I'm guessing here, but I'll bet its the USA.
Botnst is offline  
post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 08:13 PM
Cruise Control
 
Zeitgeist's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: '87 300TD/'90 300D/'94 Quattro/'89 Vanagon TDI/'01 EV Weekender VR6
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 51,730
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
RE: more jobs

Well, I reject GDP as an irrelevent index of data gibberish, but nevertheless all three countries have undergone various degrees of Friedman's brainwashing, so reading the tea leaves found in the gibberish as proof of the superiority of "free" v. protectionist policy might be a bit tricky.
Zeitgeist is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome