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post #31 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 02:00 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

Well put.[:)]
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post #32 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 02:15 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

I agree with much of what you say. However, like I said before, IMO the problem with Christianity is that there is so little of Christ in its modern version. The Old Testament and its hateful Jealous God needs to be jettisoned so the religion stops having so many contradictions, and so that the message of Christ can be portrayed as it is - a powerful message of how mankind can achieve paradise on this earth. And while Christianity is at it, it should move the Pauline letters to the Appendix section, so that the words of Christ, who most would agree was the the greatest moral genius this world (or the next if you prefer) ever produced, can be separated from the writings of Paul, a homophobic anti-women man who meant well but had none of the genius of his god. And in a final fit of common sense, the acid-trip Revelation needs to be seen for what it was - an anti-Roman tirade written by an enraged hallucigen-lover 100 years after Christ died that has no relevance to his message. Perhaps then we as a people, if we see the message of Christ uncomplicated and unmolested by men, perhaps we can finally see our way to what we are supposed to be doing. I really wish that Christianity be ultimately reduced to this:

Matthew 5


1
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when
he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
heaven.
4
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the
children of God.
10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake.
12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in
heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before
you.
13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his
savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good
for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot
of men.
14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill
cannot be hid.
15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but
on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the
house.
16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I
am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.
19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the
least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and
teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of
heaven.
20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed
the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt
not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the
judgment:
22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and
whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of
the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
danger of hell fire.
23
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there
rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be
reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way
with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the
judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be
cast into prison.
26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence,
till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not commit adultery:
28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her hath committed adultery with her already in his
heart.
29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be
cast into hell.
30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from
thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members
should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into
hell.
31
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him
give her a writing of divorcement:
32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit
adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced
committeth adultery.

33
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto
the Lord thine oaths:
34
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it
is God's throne:
35
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by
Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not
make one hair white or black.
37
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for
whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a
tooth for a tooth:
39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
also.
40
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy
coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain.
42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of
thee turn not thou away.

43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and
sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not
even the publicans the same?
47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than
others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
is perfect.

Matthew 6

1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of
them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in
heaven.
2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet
before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto
you, They have their reward.
3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy
right hand doeth:
4
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in
secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the
corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I
say unto you, They have their reward.
6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard for their much
speaking.
8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth
what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in
heaven.
11
Give us this day our daily bread.
12
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For
thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.
14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you:
15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your
Father forgive your trespasses.
16
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may
appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their
reward.
17
But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy
face;
18
That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father
which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret,
shall reward thee openly.
19
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
through nor steal:
21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be
single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of
darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness,
how great is that darkness!
24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and
despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what
ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body,
what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the
body than raiment?
26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they
reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth
them. Are ye not much better than they?
27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
stature?
28
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the
field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was
not arrayed like one of these.
30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to
day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much
more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What
shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your
heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you.
34
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall
take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day
is the evil thereof.

Matthew 7

1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with
what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote
out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.
6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your
pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.
7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock,
and it shall be opened unto you:
8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh
findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he
give him a stone?
10
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven
give good things to them that ask him?

12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to
you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the
prophets.
13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad
is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
which go in thereat:
14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and
cast into the fire.
20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven.
22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth
them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house
upon a rock:
25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds
blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was
founded upon a rock.
26
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth
them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his
house upon the sand:
27
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds
blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the
fall of it.
28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
people were astonished at his doctrine:
29
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the
scribes.
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post #33 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 03:37 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

The great moral ideas almost universally associated with Jesus were around decades before his birth. Read Russel's History of Western Philosophy for an intro. He just had some good publicists. So much for the personality cult. Now as for the content, love thy neighbour, do as you would be done by &Co - there is no argument this is admirable and worth aiming for. But you can aim for this and eschew the 'fairies in the sky' absurdities grafted on by religion. And who is the better person - one who lives a good life because he/she thinks it right, or one who does it to gain a reward in the next?

We need religion like a hole in the head. Actually, it IS a hole in the head. Just imagine a world without it..easy if you try.
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post #34 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 04:28 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

You make me chuckle, JJL[:D]
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post #35 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 05:29 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?


What's the difference between religion and morality? Can you boil a religion and condense out morality? Can you boil a morality and condense out religion?
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post #36 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 05:45 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."

Well Georgia Sam he had a bloody nose
Welfare Department they wouldn't give him no clothes
He asked poor Howard where can I go
Howard said there's only one place I know
Sam said tell me quick man I got to run
Ol' Howard just pointed with his gun
And said that way down on Highway 61.

Well Mack the Finger said to Louie the King
I got forty red white and blue shoe strings
And a thousand telephones that don't ring
Do you know where I can get rid of these things
And Louie the King said let me think for a minute son
And he said yes I think it can be easily done
Just take everything down to Highway 61.

Now the fifth daughter on the twelfth night
Told the first father that things weren't right
My complexion she said is much too white
He said come here and step into the light he says hmm you're right
Let me tell the second mother this has been done
But the second mother was with the seventh son
And they were both out on Highway 61.

Now the rovin' gambler he was very bored
He was tryin' to create a next world war
He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor
He said I never engaged in this kind of thing before
But yes I think it can be very easily done
We'll just put some bleachers out in the sun
And have it on Highway 61.
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post #37 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 06:07 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

Quote:
kerry edwards - 9/27/2004 7:29 PM


What's the difference between religion and morality? Can you boil a religion and condense out morality? Can you boil a morality and condense out religion?
Can't a person have a moral code and yet be atheist or at least agnostic? Seems starightforward - I know you're going to tell me it isn't!

Boiling religion sounds attractive.
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post #38 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 06:21 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

Why can't we move up the evolutionary ladder a notch, and worship high moral values as something god-like? If a higer morality is the ultimate message, then isn't all the superstition we've been dragging around for centuries simple excess baggage any way? Look at the vast amounts of New Testament text dedicated to portraying Jesus as fulfillment of Jewish prophecy...things important to men who lived centuries ago, but of no import to me. At the same time, aren't there moral values expressed thatwe can worship as holy, wihout the need for a man-god? Why would that not be religion?
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post #39 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 06:22 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

Quote:
jjl - 9/29/2004 7:07 PM
Can't a person have a moral code and yet be atheist or at least agnostic? Seems starightforward
God, I hope so...otherwise I'm living in a moral vacuum.
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post #40 of 88 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 06:33 PM
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RE: Papal Hypocrisy?

I move we start a church, and call it The Church of Jesus Christ Without Jesus Christ
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