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post #61 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 11:04 AM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

Talking about Kerry reminds me of pinning mercury. You take a stab at it and it quivers and wanders away.

What RDPU said was real simple and direct about Kerry--no mention of Bushie in it at all. Then you get ahold of it and it become all about Dubyah and how he's don eeverything wrong.

Yeah, Dubbie may have done everything wrong. Lets just concede that. Heck, lets assume he's incorrigibly corrupt and stupid and surrounds himself with dolts. Now MoveOn. What about M. Jean Kerry. What's he about?

RUDP - 9/24/2004 9:30 PM

Senator Kerry is a very careful man who studies issues with dilligence and great consulation with many people, both at home and abroad. As president he will be a concensus builder--he would never do what he thought was right without checking with other people first. He would consider that unilateralist and terribly inappropriate. For those of us who wish to build a world community in which the United States is an equal partner among nations, Senator Kerry is the ideal candidate.
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post #62 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 11:07 AM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

MS Fowler - 9/27/2004 12:11 PM

Jim and KV,
You guys both misread, or misunderstood ,my criticism of Sen Kerry.
Being able to see an issue from various points of view is not, necessarily a bad thing. It does, however, become a bad thing when it results in immobilizing one from taking action. You cannot begin a war, for example, then stop a war, then resume, then stop, then start. Once you take that drastic action of going to war, you must see it to its conclusion.
In my experience, not to make a decision is OFTEN much worse than making "the wrong" decision and pursuing it agressively. I'm not talking here of things like "nuk-u-lar" war--fortunately thats NOT in my experience. But in normal, capitalistic, business decisions.
MS Fowler, you are too easy a target today. Mr. Bush was so totally un prepared for this war, that "Mr. Mission Accomplished" declared the thing over when it was just getting started. He has started and stopped military action in Fallujah and Najaf, simply because of the American elections - damned what the commanders on the ground think. Again, I ask you how anyone can think this man has a plan at all, never mind one he is pursuing agressively. The man is simply not a good leader. His poor planning in this war, his politics constantly trumping military good sense resulting in inadequate troop levels, his inabliiity to listen to dissenting voices withing his own administration so that only what he wants to hear is heard, all add up to a man who is not a leader, he is a political opportunitist whose own politic needs trump everything else, even to the point they get people killed. I perceive Kerry, who has watched men die on the battlefield, will do a much better job of making decisions in a war zone than this Plastic Napolean we currently call president.

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post #63 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 11:55 AM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

kvining - 9/24/2004 6:18 PM

You claim that higher taxes will not create more jobs, yet that does not explain how during those times when taxes were high, the economy created jobs by the millions, yet now, when taxes are low, the economy losses jobs by the millions. You assert the exact opposite of history. In fact, what we really need is a tax burden that pays for the cost of government. Instead, we borrow money to the tune of half a trillion a year, and give it to the rich and corporations in the form of tax cuts. That isn't a "free market" that's a welfare state for the rich. The government, saddled with huge debt payments and a ruinous war and a Republican congress, has no way to improve schools and job training or to support new technology, and as a result we are creating a workforce composed of idiots and illegals.
Your reply comes off as rather ignorant. As I stated, I don't care for either Republican or Democratic ideology in terms of taxation and was supporting neither. I was simply pointing out the lunacy of Kerry's plan. Your assessment on recent history and the relationship between taxation and employment / health of the economy makes no sense. It is just like Pavlov's dog when studying cause and effect (do the bell and food in the bowl have a direct relationship?). Could it be that there are other variables that come into play other than taxation? I feel that taxation is just one. Simply, As costs rise for business, cuts have to be made. Tax is a cost for business. This is the single example I made. There are, of course, many other variants that will go into what will determine employment (even from the perspective of a single company). Please explain to me how higher taxes will result in a net gain of jobs.


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post #64 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 12:09 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

Of course tax cuts are only one part - thats the whole point. The only policy this current administration has is tax cuts. You seem to accuse me of simplistic thinking when you point to the fact that Kerry may have more than a one-tool toolbox as some sort of minus. Tax policy must fit the current economic realities -right now taxes should be up, not down - we are runing ruinous deficits and we are at war. Kerry is simply being a responsible leader and facing reality instead of passing out a huge free ride to the rich like Bush has done.
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post #65 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 12:30 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

And I thought the target was Bush. Take all the shots you want. Kerry is still the worst candidate, well, at least, since Dole! Kerry will lose for the same reasons as Dole did.
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post #66 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 12:33 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

Mr. Kerry does have an uphill battle facing him, but I would not be crying victory just yet. This whole election is going to hinge on the debates. A lot of people are looking for a reason not to vote for Bush.
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post #67 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 12:34 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

Here's a reason NOT to vote for Kerry:


John F. Kerry missed 72% of 119 recorded votes held in 2003 on issues President Bush had taken a position on according to Congressional Quarterly. Fellow Massachusetts senator Teddy "Chappaquidick" Kennedy missed only 3% of these votes.

Kerry Fails to Show Up At Senate, Unemployment Extension Fails By One Vote

HERE ARE ALL OF THE OTHER IMPORTANT RECORDED VOTES KERRY MISSED IN 2003 (Where's this guy been all this time??):

1: Procedural Motion - Adjourn to Time Certain
2: FY 2003 Approp.s - Homeland Security
3: FY 2003 Approp.s - Homeland Security
4: FY 2003 Approp.s - Education Block Grants
5: FY 2003 Approp.s - Education Funding
6: FY 2003 Approp.s - Rural Antidrug Program
7: FY 2003 Approp.s - Spending Reinstatement
8: FY 2003 Approp.s - Foreign Cruise Ships
13: Ridge Nomination - Confirmation
14: FY 2003 Approp.s - Unemployment Ins.
15: FY 2003 Approp.s - Drought Relief
16: FY 2003 Approp.s - Drought Relief
17: FY 2003 Approp.s - African Famine Relief
18: FY 2003 Approp.s - US AirPension Plan
26: FY03 Approp.s - Prohibit Quotas Job Priv.
31: Adams Nomination - Confirmation
32: Otero Nomination - Confirmation
33: Junell Nomination - Confirmation
36: Procedural Motion - Require Attendance
37: Procedural Motion - Require Attendance
39: Pledge of Allegiance - Adoption
44: Frost Nomination - Confirmation
45: Partial-Birth Abor. Ban - Emer. Contracep.s
46: Partial-Birth Abor. Ban - Health Exception
47: Partial-Birth Abor. Ban - Motion to Commit
49: Partial-Birth Abor. Ban - Health Exception
50: Quarles Nomination - Confirmation
51: "Partial-Birth" Abortion Ban - Passage
52: Varlan Nomination - Confirmation
53: Estrada Nomination - Cloture
54: Bybee Nomination - Confirmation
55: Breen Nomination - Confirmation
60: FY 2004 Budget Res. - Education Funding
109: Coalition Member Support - Adoption
110: Military Tax Breaks - Passage
111: Selna Nomination - Confirmation
112: Springmann Nomination - Confirmation
114: Estrada Nomination - Cloture
115: FY 2003 War Supplemental - Port Security
116: FY ‘03 War Supp. - Nat'l. Guard & Reserves

117: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - Aircraft Missile Def.
118: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - Ind. Member Projects
119: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - Counterterror Funding
120: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - Homeland Security
121: FY 2003 War Supplemental - War Costs
122: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - First Resp’r. Funding
123: FY ‘03 War Suppl. - First Resp’r. Funding
124: FY ’03 War Suppl. - Iraqi Food Assistance
125: FY 2003 War Supplemental - Passage
126: Carney Nomination - Confirmation
132: Protections for Children - Conf. Report
133: Swimmer Nomination - Confirmation
135: Sutton Nomination - Confirmation
139: Cook Nomination - Confirmation
140: Estrada Nomination - Cloture
141: Altonaga Nomination - Confirmation
145: FISA Warrants - Feinstein Substitute
146: FISA Warrants - Passage
147: Tax Reductions - On-Budget Surplus
180: Global AIDS Relief - Abstinence Programs
181: Global AIDS Relief - Drug Pricing
182: Global AIDS Relief - AIDS Orphans
183: Global AIDS Relief - Aid to Carib. Nations
184: Hicks Nominat. - Confirm.
185: FY ’04 Def. Auth. - Reservist Health Care
186: FY ’04 Def. Auth. - Nucl. Weapons Study
187: FY ’04 Def. Auth. - Nucl. Weapons Study
188: FY ’04 Def. Auth. - Nucl. Weapons Study
189: FY’04 Def. Auth. - Nucl. Pen. Weapons
192: FY'04 Defense Auth. - Overseas Abortions
193: FY 2004 Defense Auth. - Def. Contracts
194: FY 2004 Defense Authorization - Passage
195: Callahan Nomination - Confirmation
202: Debt Limit Increase - Passage
203: Energy Policy - Ethanol Requir. Exclusion
204: Energy Policy - Ethanol Requir. Exclusion
205: FY 2004 Defense Authoriz. - Base Closures 206: Energy Policy - Ethanol Requir. Exclusion
211: Chertoff Nomination - Confirmation
216: Greer Nomination - Confirmation
217: Kravitz Nomination - Confirmation
218: Energy Policy - Energy Commodity Trading
219: Energy Policy - Indian Energy Projects
220: Myanmar Sanctions - Passage
223: FY 2004 FAA Reauth. - Pilot Age Req.
224: "" "" - Foreign Repair Stations
225: FY 2004 FAA Reauthorization - Passage
226: Pate Nomination - Confirmation
PDB (Prescription Drug Benefit)
227: PDB - Within Medicare
228: PDB - Drug Cost Disclosure
229: PDB - Premium Cap
230: PDB - Drug Patents
231: Amer. History, Civics Academies - Passage

232: PDB - Drug Importation
233: PDB - Third-Party Coverage
234: PDB - Open Enrollment Period
235: PDB - Canadian Price Equity
236: PDB - Cost Sharing Extension
237: PDB - Congressional Coverage
238: PDB - Two-Year Fallback Plan
239: PDB - Benefit Availability
240: PDB - Drug Cost Coverage
241: PDB - Employer Compensation
242: PDB - Health Centers
243: PDB - Drug Advertisements
244: PDB- Premium Reduction
245: PDB - Durbin Substitute
246: PDB - Cost-Effectiveness Studies
247: PDB - Disability Services
248: PDB - Drug Advertisements
249: PDB - Cancer Care
250: PDB - Cancer Patient Coverage
251: PDB - Asset Test
252: PDB - Alzheimer's Subsidy
253: PDB - Additional Disease Treatment
254: PDB - Premium Reduction
255: PDB - Experimental Drug Coverage
256: PDB - Immigrant Coverage
257: PDB - Retiree Coverage
258: PDB - Medigap Policies
259: PDB - Retiree Fallback Plan
260: PDB - Alternative Plan
261: PDB - Means Test
262: PDB - Passage
263: Campbell Nomination - Confirmation
264: Medical Malpractice - Cloture
265: Wolski Nomination - Confirmation
266: Child Tax Credit - Motion to Proceed
SDR: FY 2004 State Dept. Reauthorization
267: SDR - Mexico City Policy
269: SDR - Unemployment Insurance
270: SDR - HIV/AIDS Funding
LBA: FY 2004 Legislative Branch Appropriations

272: LBA - AmeriCorps
273: LBA Legislative Branch App. - Passage
274: FY'04 Military Construction App. - Passage
275: Der-Yeghiayan Nomination - Confirmation
276: Suko Nomination - Confirmation
DA: FY 2004 Defense Appropriations
277: FY 2004 DA - Troop Deployments
278: DA - Cost of Iraq Operations
279: DA - Military Detainees
280: Myanmar Sanctions - Passage
281: DA - Iraq War Costs
282: DA - Military Health Care
283: DA- Iraqi Reconstruction
284: DA - Iraqi Intel. Commission
285: DA - Unauthorized Approp.s
286: DA - Overseas Military Funding
287: DA - Intel. Funding
288: DA - HIV/AIDS Funding

289: Duncan Nomination - Confirmation
290: FY'04 Def. Approp. - Passage
HSA: FY'04 Homeland Sec'ty Appropriations
291: HSA - Approp.s Increase
292: HSA - Law Enforcement Costs
293: HSA - Emer. Mgmt. Planning Grants
294: HSA - Port Security
295: HSA - Explosive Device
296: HSA - Firefighter Grants
297: HSA - Chemical Plant Sec.
298: HSA - Canadian Border Sec.
299: HSA - First Responder Funding
300:HSA - Maritime Security
301: HSA - High-Threat Urban Areas
302: HSA - High-Threat Urban Areas
303: HSA - Federal Advisory Boards
304: HSA - Transit Security
305: HSA - Lobbying Restrictions
306: HSA - Passage
307: Yeakel Nomination - Confirmation
308: Owen Nomination - Cloture
309: Energy Policy - Fuel Economy Standards
310: Energy Policy - Fuel Economy Standards
311: Energy Policy - Price Manipulation
312: Estrada Nomination - Cloture
313: Energy Policy - Utility Mergers
314: Energy Policy - Standard Market Design
315: Energy Policy - Internal Transactions
316: Pryor Nomination - Cloture
317: Energy Policy - Passage
318: U.S.-Singapore Trade - Passage
319: U.S.-Chile Trade - Passage
320: Cohn Nomination - Confirmation
321: Montalvo Nomination - Confirmation
LHSA: FY'04 Labor-HHS-Edu Approp.
322: LHSA: - Hispanic Edu. Prog.s
323: LHSA: - Impact Aid
324: LHSA: - IDEA Funding
325: LHSA: - Job Training
326: LHSA: - Rural Edu. Grants
327: Colloton Nomination - Confirmation
328: LHSA: - Bioterr. Workforce
329: LHSA: - School Construction
330: LHSA: - Title I Funding
331: LHSA: - Higher Education
332: LHSA: - HIV/AIDS Funding
333: LHSA: - Head Start
336: LHSA: - LIHEAP Assist.
339: LHSA: - Fin. Aid Eligibility
340: LHSA: - After-school Progr.s
341: LHSA: - Safe Child./Fam. Prom.
342: LHSA: - Education Funding
343: LHSA: - Teacher Quality Progr.s
344: LHSA: - After School Progr.s
345: LHSA: - W. Nile/Mosquito Control
346: LHSA: - NIH Funding
347: LHSA: - Passage
MOR: Media Ownership Rule
348: MOR Disapproval - Passage
EWA: FY 2004 Energy/Water Appropriations
349: EWA - Adv. Nucl. Weapons
350: EWA - Passage
351: Partial-Birth Abortion Ban:
..... - Disagree to House Amend.
352: Proctor Nomination - Confirmation
353: Feuerstein Nomination - Confirmation
354: Conrad Nomination - Confirmation
355: Floyd Nomination - Confirmation
IA: FY 2004 Interior Appropriations
356: IA - Indian Health Service
357: Gibson Nomination - Confirmation
358: IA - National Mall Ad Ban
359: IA - Judicial Review of Timber Sales
360: IA - Competitive Sourcing Annual Rept.
361: IA - Compet. Sourcing Rev. Prohibition
362: IA - Indian Health Service Funding
363: Burns Nomination - Confirmation
DA: FY 2004 Defense Appropriations
364: DA - Confereance Report
365: Do-Not-Call Registry - Passage
366: Sabraw Nomination - Confirmation
367: Mosman Nomination - Confirmation
368: Bea Nomination - Confirmation
369: Crone Nomination - Confirmation
370: White Nomination - Confirmation
SIA: FY 2004 Suppl. for Iraq/Afghanistan
371: SIA - Iraqi Reconstruc.
376: SIA - Safety Equipment
377: Genetic Nondiscrimination - Passage
378: SIA - Iraqi Lib. Medal
379: SIA - Domestic Spending
380: SIA - Reconstr. Financing
381: SIA - Mil Res. Retire. Age
382: SIA - Add’l Army Personnel
383: SIA - Congressional Report
384: SIA - Removal Of Saddam
398: SIA - Cong. Approval
401: Rodgers Nomination - Confirmation
403: Class Action Lawsuits - Cloture
404: Unsolicited E-Mail - Passage
TTA: FY 2004 Trans.-Treas. Appropriations
405: TTA - Cuba Travel Ban
406: TTA - Congress'l. Pay Raises
407: TTA - Competitive Sourcing
408: TTA - Competitive Sourcing
409: TTA - Election Systems Overhaul
410: TTA - Passage
411: Fischer Nomination - Confirmation
412: Leavitt Nomination - Confirmation
FOA: FY 2004 Foreign Operaions Approp.
413: FOA - State Dept. Reauth.
414: FOA - Coalition Prov. Auth. Funds
415: FOA - For’n Support for Hijackers
FT: Forest Thinning
416: FT - Logging Projects
417:FT - Medical Monitoring Program
418: FT - Air Monitoring
419: Pickering Nomination - Cloture
421: FT - Fire Fighting Funds
422: FT - Fuel Management
423: FT - Judicial Review
424: FT - Fire Reduction Project Funds
425: FT - Old Growth Protection
426: FT - Environmental Impact Statements
427: FT - Title I Authorization
428: FT - Passage
FOA: FY 2004 Foreign Operaions Approp.
429: FOA - HIV/AIDS Funding
430: FOA - Abstinence Programs
431: FOA - Global AIDS Initiative
432: FOA - Global AIDS Initiative
IA: FY 2004 Interior Appropriations
433: IA - Conference Report
CRO: Credit Reporting Overhaul
434: CRO - Affiliate Sharing
435: CRO - Data Mining
AA: FY 2004 Agriculture Appropriations
436: AA - Energy Transparency
437: Credit Reporting Overhaul - Passage
438: Titus Nomination - Confirmation
439: AA - Electricity Market Manip.
440: AA - Crop Losses
441: Pryor Nomination - Cloture
442: AA - Conservation Reserve Prog.
443: AA - Country of Origin Labeling
444: AA - Passage
445: Syria Sanctions - Passage
DA: FY 2004 Defense Authorization
446: DA - Motion to Proceed
447: DA - Adoption
448: DA Approp.s - Adoption
VAHA: FY 2004 VA-HUD Appropriations
449: VAHA - Clean Water Fund
450: Owen Nomination - Cloture
451: Kuhl Nomination - Cloture
452: Brown Nomination - Cloture
453: FY 2004 FAA Reauth. - Cloture
454: Dorr Nomination - Cloture
455: Dorr Nomination - Cloture
456: Energy Policy - Cloture
459: Medicare Prescription
Drug Benefit - Conference Report

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post #68 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 12:55 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

My point is there was no external threat to the United States to push us into making a hasty decision to go to war. In fact the whole thing turned out to be a charade about WMD, and given that fact, we should not have taken any action. Waiting for your justification to go to war to be validated by other sources of information, or at least resolving glaring differences in the information you are getting before going to war would be a sign of a leader with wisdom.

When Congress authorized the use of armed forces to contain the imminent spread of WMD from Saddam's arsenal, there were conditions. Yes, everyone was under the impression they likely existed. But read the authorization. It required exhaustive efforts to establish the necessary circumstances to go ahead. Bush failed to comply and charged ahead. Decisive, yeah, but like a bull charging a red flag. Not much in the way of analysis, validation and planning.

Which continues as we get deeper and deeper into this mire and muck. Way too many decisions based on wanting things to be a certain way, and not enough based on dealing with the world the way it really is. All this equates to poor leadership.

I would welcome someone who would agonize over committing troops to solve a problem with guns, missiles and bombs. I would hope he would test his understanding of the problem over and over until he was certain he was right, then sought external confirmation. This is a common practice in successful corporations before committing to projects or expenditures that could bankrupt the corporation. It is common because it is successful.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Kerry's role to date has not been to make the decision. It was to define conditions under which the decision should be made so it could be supported. These conditions were not followed and Kerry "had to live" with the reality of that, and the reality of the fact that we are now in Iraq. These are not the same conditions the President deals with, and Kerry has been remarkably consistent over the last 4 years with the Congressional Resolutions passed on Iraq from the Clinton Administration and what he thought was going to transpire with the Resolution to authorize the use of military force in Iraq.

Remember, the detailed, daily reports the President got were not shared with Congress. The conversations with his advisors and cabinet members were not shared with Congress, especially not the Democrats from Massachusetts. In many respects the word of the President was taken at face value. This was post 9/11 when the country appeared to be vulnerable to further attacks amidst the Anthrax scare and their new acquaintance with Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. Partisan politics was not entirely set aside, but a unique trust was percieved to be needed between the President and Congress, including the Democrats, to maintain the country's security. That trust manipulated and abused by Bush in his headlong rush to depose Saddam. None of the reasons cited to go have proven to be correct, none of the anticipated responses to our actions have unfolded as we were lead to expect, and none of the present day civil war precursor combat was anticipated and planned.

The actual battle plan was so deficient, the WMD stores being guarded by UN forces, consisting of nuclear materials from the Iraqi reactor plant the Isrealis blew up and other unaccounted for stuff, were left unguarded for several months after "major hostilities ended." They were unguarded because the UN troops guarding them had to leave to avoid being killed by the shock and awe campaign and subsequent ground war. These nuclear materials were subsequently recovered on the black market, which is a stroke of luck. I doubt we will fall into such good fortune again, and only a moron would have this as a feature of his "plan."

Bush's agenda and activities to date are easy to follow if you get sucked in real close and hold your nose to the path he has scented for you to follow. However, if you ever stand back and look at with a question about any aspect, it rapidly unravels into a pile of pocket lint. There is no rhyme or reason, no near term logic and hand off to a long term logic. No back up plans and no step after next plans.

My advice if you really cannot face realizing Bush is not qualified for the job is to stop watching. Plug your ears, cover your eyes and don't engage in these discussions. Human learning is based on pattern recognition. Eventually everyone will see the pattern, or almost everyone. There is always the dope who doesn't see a hurricaine is not a safe surfing opportunity, or doesn't recognize putting your head in a lion's mouth might be dangerous. But given time and exposure to the pattern, it is human to learn to recognize the pattern. My hope is enough people recognize the pattern soon enough that we do not need to fall further in the hole for the next four years. It is readily apparent Bush is not up to the job, so we should do him a favor and relieve him of this burden he is not capable of bearing. Jim
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post #69 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 01:48 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

98MBE320 - 9/27/2004 12:34 PM

(Where's this guy been all this time??)
Traditionally, it's best to spend your time campaigning when you are running for the presidency.

Also, seeing how Bush has spent over 500 days (as of April 2004, so there have been more since then), or 40% of his time on vacation... I'm just going to say that I'm a bit more concerned about the Commander in Chief not showing up rather than a state senator.
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post #70 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2004, 03:52 PM
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RE: Why Would Anyone Vote For Kerry

kvining - 9/27/2004 1:09 PM

Of course tax cuts are only one part - thats the whole point. The only policy this current administration has is tax cuts. You seem to accuse me of simplistic thinking when you point to the fact that Kerry may have more than a one-tool toolbox as some sort of minus. Tax policy must fit the current economic realities -right now taxes should be up, not down - we are runing ruinous deficits and we are at war. Kerry is simply being a responsible leader and facing reality instead of passing out a huge free ride to the rich like Bush has done.
I know that you're pretty hot on being a mainstream liberal so I'll say this. Kerry's plan is just as insane as Bush's increase in spending with lowering of taxes. Purely economically, they both lose. Kerry is not being a responsible leader. He will cause harm by raising taxes on business. Those who are rich will continue to be rich because they will fire the middle class workers that they can no longer afford to employ. Lowering taxes on business would help (and has helped) them more than raising taxes. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how raising taxes on business will create jobs


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