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post #41 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 05:55 PM
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

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MikeV - 9/24/2004 4:28 PM

Where do you guys come from?

I heard a funny thing on the radio today, it was a speach by Mr. Heinz-Kerry. He was talking about all the terrorists that we were fighting in Iraq that weren't there before our "Invasion" (the Invasion he voted for by the way). That statement just proves to me and other that he doesn't get it. Most of these Terrorists we're fightiing in Iraq were not there before, great, they're coming out of the woodwork, from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. We've found a way to turn the war on terrorism a millitary action rather than a police action, a much easier battle to win. As for the American lives lost, I have never served in the military, but I have a young son, and if one day he came to me and told me he wanted to be a Marine it would make me very, very proud. The Men and Women dying in Iraq under our flag our fighting for our rights. Michael Moore and the like like to call them Children, yet all of them volenteered and many of them see it as an honor should they sacrifice their life for the country they love, just as countless thousands before them. The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS spits on the graves of all those brave men and women that have shed blood or lost their lives for the rights said BSers are excersing.
You are very funny. You call what's happening in Iraq winning? You think we are drawing terrorists out to be killed in Iraq? Most of what we are fighting there is local resistance - each time we kill someone's brother or child, we are creating more people against us. We cannot win militarily. You claim to be paying attention, have you heard all the military officials coming back saying we cannot win?

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post #42 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 06:50 PM
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Botnst - 9/24/2004 1:19 PM

Iraq and Vietnam have almost nothing in common: Strategically, in terms of culture, in terrain and in coalition tactics. About the only thing in common is that the insurgents are using similar tactics and are taking a terrible beating for it.

Oh yeah, the other thing in common is a whining bunch of candy-asses at home undermining the the will of the voters, which is fair in a democracy, while also underming the will of our armed forces in the face of the enemy. Yeah, that's familiar
There is one more similarity. We did not need to go to Vietnam to ensure the survival of our way of life or our nation. And we did not need to go to Iraq for those reasons either.

The point is, if those items are not threatened we should not be killing people with our armed forces. Jim
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post #43 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

In fact that is the key similarity. I am sure if we compare water buffalos to camels, we can find differences all day, but the #1 similiarity is at the top of the heap - then as now we thought we could achieve our aims thru a policy of occupation and puppet government. And like Nam, we will bleed from a thousand cuts as a result, and our country will be fractured and its treasury robbed as a result.

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post #44 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 07:08 PM
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Quote:
MikeV - 9/24/2004 6:28 PM

Where do you guys come from?

I heard a funny thing on the radio today, it was a speach by Mr. Heinz-Kerry. He was talking about all the terrorists that we were fighting in Iraq that weren't there before our "Invasion" (the Invasion he voted for by the way). That statement just proves to me and other that he doesn't get it. Most of these Terrorists we're fightiing in Iraq were not there before, great, they're coming out of the woodwork, from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. We've found a way to turn the war on terrorism a millitary action rather than a police action, a much easier battle to win. As for the American lives lost, I have never served in the military, but I have a young son, and if one day he came to me and told me he wanted to be a Marine it would make me very, very proud. The Men and Women dying in Iraq under our flag our fighting for our rights. Michael Moore and the like like to call them Children, yet all of them volenteered and many of them see it as an honor should they sacrifice their life for the country they love, just as countless thousands before them. The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS spits on the graves of all those brave men and women that have shed blood or lost their lives for the rights said BSers are excersing.
The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS honors the braveness of the men and women who have given their lives for this country over its history. It is uniquely American to be able to exercise the right to spew when and where you want, and exercising that right honors that sacrifice of soldiers who have died since our Revolution. It is uniquely perverted that you would want to restrict that right by invoking the deaths of these brave Americans who died defending the unrestricted right to free speech.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution about, in times of War, or other form of folly initiated by our government, having these rights restricted to suit some perversely un-American concept of "troop support." That may fly in Nazi Germany, or the old USSR or North Korea, but not in the America thousands of our brave, dedicated, men and women have died defending.

I wonder if you have thought about the inverse of your proposition. Could it be that by baiting our simpleton President (please note how I am able to keep my focus on the President, and not drag his wife into this) to send Americans to Iraq, the terrorists are engaged in a near free for all type killing spree? It is a rare occasion for groups of terrorists to assemble and commit an act where month by month they get to kill a few hundred Americans in America. I can think of only one such event. But now, on a weekly basis they kill a dozen or so. And as individuals they never did seem to care much about survival or the ratios, since everyone who rode a plane on 9/11 died. Get a grip. We are being played because it is so easy to play GWB. Bush just has to go. He has convinced too many Americans mediocrity is a noble goal for our country. Jim
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post #45 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Quote:
MikeV - 9/24/2004 6:28 PM

Where do you guys come from?

I heard a funny thing on the radio today, it was a speach by Mr. Heinz-Kerry. He was talking about all the terrorists that we were fighting in Iraq that weren't there before our "Invasion" (the Invasion he voted for by the way). That statement just proves to me and other that he doesn't get it. Most of these Terrorists we're fightiing in Iraq were not there before, great, they're coming out of the woodwork, from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. We've found a way to turn the war on terrorism a millitary action rather than a police action, a much easier battle to win. As for the American lives lost, I have never served in the military, but I have a young son, and if one day he came to me and told me he wanted to be a Marine it would make me very, very proud. The Men and Women dying in Iraq under our flag our fighting for our rights. Michael Moore and the like like to call them Children, yet all of them volenteered and many of them see it as an honor should they sacrifice their life for the country they love, just as countless thousands before them. The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS spits on the graves of all those brave men and women that have shed blood or lost their lives for the rights said BSers are excersing.
Bush sends men to die in a war his own history shows he would not have fought in himself. That is the real spit being spewed. We need a President who has seen men die in battle, one who won't give their lives away so easily in a trumped-up war against a country that was no threat to us, men's lives spent on the hunt for oil. Bush and his illegal phony war has robbed them of the nobleness of their sacrifice - he sends their bodies home in secret, and he and his wife wouldn't be caught dead at a soldier's funeral, where they would have to face mother's like the one who cussed out Laura in public last week. Bush is even afraid to face public questions about his war in the debates, and the only people allowed into his speeches are card-carrying Party Members. The comparision to the old USSR is right on the mark.

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post #46 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 09:46 PM
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

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old300D - 9/24/2004 4:55 PM

Quote:
MikeV - 9/24/2004 4:28 PM

Where do you guys come from?

I heard a funny thing on the radio today, it was a speach by Mr. Heinz-Kerry. He was talking about all the terrorists that we were fighting in Iraq that weren't there before our "Invasion" (the Invasion he voted for by the way). That statement just proves to me and other that he doesn't get it. Most of these Terrorists we're fightiing in Iraq were not there before, great, they're coming out of the woodwork, from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. We've found a way to turn the war on terrorism a millitary action rather than a police action, a much easier battle to win. As for the American lives lost, I have never served in the military, but I have a young son, and if one day he came to me and told me he wanted to be a Marine it would make me very, very proud. The Men and Women dying in Iraq under our flag our fighting for our rights. Michael Moore and the like like to call them Children, yet all of them volenteered and many of them see it as an honor should they sacrifice their life for the country they love, just as countless thousands before them. The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS spits on the graves of all those brave men and women that have shed blood or lost their lives for the rights said BSers are excersing.
You are very funny. You call what's happening in Iraq winning? You think we are drawing terrorists out to be killed in Iraq? Most of what we are fighting there is local resistance - each time we kill someone's brother or child, we are creating more people against us. We cannot win militarily. You claim to be paying attention, have you heard all the military officials coming back saying we cannot win?
And you guys call Bush a simpleton? You killed my brother so now I'm going to avenge his death. Works in a movie, but that is not the case here. A large percentage of insurgents being killed in Iraq are mostly from neighboring countries. These are the facts. Research it for yourself.

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post #47 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Actually, I did research it, we had a whole thread on just that question on the other forum. Every news organization has stated that the Bush administration has never given them any facts to back that up - you are welcome to post a link to prove what youare saying - good luck. Even the al-Zaqwawi al-Queda story is coming unraveled:

O'Reilly, Wall Street Journal made bogus claims about Zarqawi to bolster Bush's case for Iraq war

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409240011

As the situation in Iraq worsens, President George W. Bush's supporters in the media have renewed their efforts to justify the war by echoing a dubious Bush administration claim about a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq. In recent days, FOX News Channel host Bill O'Reilly and The Wall Street Journal have written articles focusing on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born terrorist now active in Iraq whom the Bush administration cited before and after the war as evidence of a dangerous Iraq-Al Qaeda connection. In fact, though he is a terrorist, Zarqawi's prewar connections to both Hussein and Al Qaeda were tenuous.

Zarqawi was a crucial element in the Bush administration's case for war against Iraq. When Secretary of State Colin Powell addressed the United Nations Security Council on February 5, 2003, he discussed Zarqawi at length, claiming that the terrorist had helped establish Al Qaeda "affiliates" in Baghdad. On June 15, 2003, one month after Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq, he described Zarqawi as "the best evidence of [an Iraqi] connection to Al Qaeda affiliates and Al Qaeda."

In his September 16 nationally syndicated column, O'Reilly echoed the Bush administration's claim, emphasizing Zarqawi's supposed connection with both Iraq and Al Qaeda and blasting The New York Times for not acknowledging it. But O'Reilly's column distorted or omitted crucial facts:

What are we to make of the New York Times describing terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as a "Jordanian militant"? [NYT article here] I mean, this guy is one of the most vicious al Qaeda thugs in the world. ... On June 17th of this year, a U.S. intelligence official provided my researcher Nate Fredman with the following information: In early 2000, Zarqawi traveled to Afghanistan to assume a leadership position in an al Qaeda training camp.

But Zarqawi's training camp in Afghanistan was apparently not an Al Qaeda camp at all. In a June 26 New York Times op-ed, Peter Bergen, author of Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden, wrote:

So is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi really the missing link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein? Actually, the evidence of his relationship with either is far from clear cut. ... One indication of his independence is that when he founded his training camp in Afghanistan in 2000, he did so near the western city of Herat, on the Iranian border, hundreds of miles away from Al Qaeda's camps.

Roger Cressey, who was a counterterrorism official on the National Security Council staff at that time, told me that Mr. Zarqawi's camp was set up "as much in competition as it was in cooperation" with Al Qaeda.

A June 25, 2003, Newsweek article supports Bergen's and Cressey's assessment:

During his [Zarqawi's] stay in Baghdad, Powell claimed [in his U.N. speech] that "nearly two dozen ... al Qaeda affiliates" converged on the Iraqi capital and "established a base of operations there."

But the German interrogations of [Zarqawi associate] Shadi Abdallah present a more complex and somewhat different picture of Zarqawi's role in international terrorism. According to Abdullah, Zarqawi's Al Tawhid group focuses on installing an Islamic regime in Jordan and killing Jews. And although Al Tawhid maintained its own training camp near Herat, Afghanistan, Zarqawi competed with bin Laden for trainees and members, Abdallah claimed.

O'Reilly has a long history of bogus claims about Zarqawi. On the June 3 edition of FOX News Channel's The O'Reilly Factor, for example, O'Reilly called Zarqawi "second or third in command of Al Qaeda."

O'Reilly continued his distortions by suggesting that Zarqawi's treatment in a Baghdad hospital proves his cooperation with Saddam: "Zarqawi stayed in the Al Qaeda area until war broke out after 9/11/01. He actively fought against U.S. forces and was wounded. After the collapse of the Taliban, he fled to Iran and then traveled to Iraq where his wounded leg was treated in a hospital run by Uday Hussein."

But Newsweek reported in a March 3, 2003, article that U.S. officials don't regard Zarqawi's treatment as definitive evidence of complicity with Hussein:

American officials know only a few basic facts about Zarqawi's two-month stay in Baghdad last summer. A hospital treated him for injuries sustained in Afghanistan. His leg was amputated, and he was fitted with a prosthesis. The Iraqi government's role in arranging for the treatment is "unknown," U.S. officials confess, and the hospitalization does not prove any Iraqi government "complicity."

More recently, on March 22, Newsweek suggested that even the basic intelligence about Zarqawi's medical care is faulty:

Before the Iraq war, one article of indictment against Saddam was that he had supplied Zarqawi with medical treatment in Baghdad -- including a prosthetic leg -- after the latter was badly wounded in Afghanistan. But that appears to have been based on more bad intel. Senior U.S. military officials in Baghdad tell Newsweek they are now convinced Zarqawi has two fully functioning legs.

In his column, O'Reilly also referenced Ansar al-Islam, a terrorist group based in northern Iraq with which Zarqawi worked. But he failed to mention either that Ansar al-Islam's ties to Al Qaeda are tenuous or that the region in northeastern Iraq where Ansar al-Islam was based was outside of Hussein's control. O'Reilly wrote: "In the summer of 2002, Zarqawi went to Northern Iraq to train terrorists with the group Ansar al Islam, which is affiliated with al Qaeda."

But as The Washington Post reported on June 22, 2003, Ansar al-Islam was "unaffiliated" with Al Qaeda:

The president said some al Qaeda leaders had fled Afghanistan to Iraq and referred to one "very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year." It was a reference to Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian. U.S. intelligence already had concluded that Zarqawi was not an al Qaeda member but the leader of an unaffiliated terrorist group who occasionally associated with al Qaeda adherents.

And according to a January 23 Associated Press article, "Ansar al-Islam operated in a region of northern Iraq that was outside of Saddam's control before the war."

O'Reilly also failed to note that, according to NBC News, the Bush administration considered mounting an attack specifically targeting Zarqawi and Ansar al-Islam, "but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam." Ironically, O'Reilly concluded his column by noting, "The reason the Times and some other liberal media operations continue to downplay Zarqawi and, indeed, the entire worldwide terror threat is ... the liberal press does not want another pre-emptive strike against terrorists like the one the USA launched against Iraq."

In its September 23 editorial (WSJ.com subscription required), The Wall Street Journal also emphasized Zarqawi's allegedly close connection to Al Qaeda. "It's worth remembering," the Journal wrote, "that Zarqawi had fewer qualms about the secular Saddam, with whom he worked visibly enough to be cited in Colin Powell's February 2003 U.N. presentation." But this observation proves little given that Powell's U.N. speech has been largely discredited by subsequent findings (or lack of findings) in Iraq.

The Journal concluded: "Of course, opponents of deposing Saddam keep telling us the old regime had no connections to terrorism. But we certainly feel safer knowing that one half of the Saddam-Zarqawi alliance now resides in an Iraqi jail." But as noted above, what the Journal calls an "alliance" has amounted to little, so far as U.S. intelligence can tell, beyond treatment in a hospital followed by travel to a region of Iraq outside Hussein's control.

For more articles assessing Zarqawi's ties to Al Qaeda, see The Christian Science Monitor (October 16, 2003), The New York Times (February 22), and Knight Ridder Newspapers (March 3, 2003).

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post #48 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 09:56 PM
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Quote:
JimSmith - 9/24/2004 6:08 PM

Quote:
MikeV - 9/24/2004 6:28 PM

Where do you guys come from?

I heard a funny thing on the radio today, it was a speach by Mr. Heinz-Kerry. He was talking about all the terrorists that we were fighting in Iraq that weren't there before our "Invasion" (the Invasion he voted for by the way). That statement just proves to me and other that he doesn't get it. Most of these Terrorists we're fightiing in Iraq were not there before, great, they're coming out of the woodwork, from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. We've found a way to turn the war on terrorism a millitary action rather than a police action, a much easier battle to win. As for the American lives lost, I have never served in the military, but I have a young son, and if one day he came to me and told me he wanted to be a Marine it would make me very, very proud. The Men and Women dying in Iraq under our flag our fighting for our rights. Michael Moore and the like like to call them Children, yet all of them volenteered and many of them see it as an honor should they sacrifice their life for the country they love, just as countless thousands before them. The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS spits on the graves of all those brave men and women that have shed blood or lost their lives for the rights said BSers are excersing.
The fact that people post or spew this kind of BS honors the braveness of the men and women who have given their lives for this country over its history. It is uniquely American to be able to exercise the right to spew when and where you want, and exercising that right honors that sacrifice of soldiers who have died since our Revolution. It is uniquely perverted that you would want to restrict that right by invoking the deaths of these brave Americans who died defending the unrestricted right to free speech.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution about, in times of War, or other form of folly initiated by our government, having these rights restricted to suit some perversely un-American concept of "troop support." That may fly in Nazi Germany, or the old USSR or North Korea, but not in the America thousands of our brave, dedicated, men and women have died defending.

I wonder if you have thought about the inverse of your proposition. Could it be that by baiting our simpleton President (please note how I am able to keep my focus on the President, and not drag his wife into this) to send Americans to Iraq, the terrorists are engaged in a near free for all type killing spree? It is a rare occasion for groups of terrorists to assemble and commit an act where month by month they get to kill a few hundred Americans in America. I can think of only one such event. But now, on a weekly basis they kill a dozen or so. And as individuals they never did seem to care much about survival or the ratios, since everyone who rode a plane on 9/11 died. Get a grip. We are being played because it is so easy to play GWB. Bush just has to go. He has convinced too many Americans mediocrity is a noble goal for our country. Jim
What happen to the "children" jim? Now they're Men and Women. Thank you for that. Most of Iraq is in order. Schools and hospitals are open, remember Kerry talking about the fire houses in Iraq during his 5 hour long acceptance speach? You have every right to "spew" the crap you "spew." I'm not trying to take that away from you. But it is called giving comfort to the enemy. It's sad that you don't see it. In '44 Dewey was not questioning FDR on every move he made, that would be the wrong thing to do during a time of war. But JFK II has no problem with it. Bush does not have to go, he has to stay put.

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post #49 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Quote:
And you guys call Bush a simpleton? You killed my brother so now I'm going to avenge his death. Works in a movie, but that is not the case here. A large percentage of insurgents being killed in Iraq are mostly from neighboring countries. These are the facts. Research it for yourself.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-05-detainees-usat_x.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1119-12.htm
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post #50 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-24-2004, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Situation in Iraq worsens. Mission Unaccomplished Unravels

Quote:
What happen to the "children" jim? Now they're Men and Women. Thank you for that. Most of Iraq is in order. Schools and hospitals are open, remember Kerry talking about the fire houses in Iraq during his 5 hour long acceptance speach? You have every right to "spew" the crap you "spew." I'm not trying to take that away from you. But it is called giving comfort to the enemy. It's sad that you don't see it. In '44 Dewey was not questioning FDR on every move he made, that would be the wrong thing to do during a time of war. But JFK II has no problem with it. Bush does not have to go, he has to stay put.

"Most of iraq is in order"? What a propaganda puppet you are. Over 6,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the last two months. Some "in order". Rumsfeld himslef says they can't even hold elections in half the country.
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