The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists) - Mercedes-Benz Forum

 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

For $200 Billion we could gift wrap one for each member of Al-Queda. Once again Israel shows us the right way to wage war on terrorists.

Israeli Missile Kills Top Hamas Militant in Gaza Strip
By Nidal al-Mughrabi, Reuters

GAZA (Sept. 19) - A senior leader of Hamas's military wing was killed in an Israeli missile strike on his car as it drove through a Hamas stronghold in the Gaza Strip on Sunday, witnesses said.

The missile, which witnesses said was fired by an airforce drone, ripped through a car carrying a senior field commander of Hamas's Izz el-Deen al-Qassam brigades, Khaled Abu Selniya, 33. He was killed and six passersby were wounded.

Hamas vowed to avenge the death of Selniya, whom it described as a senior field commander of the group's armed wing, which has been behind scores of suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel over the past decade.

"It was a clear assassination of one of our mujahideen (Muslim fighter) ... Hamas will be able and capable of teaching the enemy a painful lesson," said Mushir al-Masri, a Hamas spokesman.

The Israeli army said in a statement that Selniya was targeted by the airforce because he played a central role in the manufacture and development of Qassam rockets which Hamas militants have fired at the nearby Israeli city of Sderot.

Selniya's mangled body was taken to a local hospital. Charred wreckage from the car was strewn across the street and windows were shattered in nearby shops.

The strike took place shortly after Hamas militants celebrated in the streets at the release of another leader of the group by Palestinian security forces.

The leader had been arrested earlier in the day and Selniya was apparently returning after visiting the man in his home in Gaza City's Sheikh Radwan neighborhood.

"There was an airforce strike on a senior Hamas terrorist who was traveling in a car," an army spokeswoman said.

Witnesses said an Israeli military drone was flying overhead when the car burst into flames. Several witnesses reported seeing a flash of light in the sky before the explosion.

"Your blood will not be in vain. We will get revenge," Hamas activists shouted over loudspeakers in the Gaza Strip.

Israel has killed scores of Palestinian militants in air strikes since a four-year-old Palestinian uprising began.

Israel's policy of targeting militants has been condemned by human rights groups and many members of the international community.

Israel says it is the only way of reaching militants who hide in civilian areas without causing heavy civilian casualties.

Tension has escalated in Gaza since Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced his plan to withdraw troops and settlers by the end of next year from the narrow coastal strip captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war.

Islamic militants hope to make the army withdraw under fire, while the military is determined to crush Hamas and other militant groups opposed to its existence to ensure that the pullout will not be seen as a victory.


09/19/04 16:47 ET

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:27 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

“Hamas vowed to avenge the death of Selniya…�


...that’s the fatal flaw in your plan…

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

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jdc1244 - 9/19/2004 6:27 PM

“Hamas vowed to avenge the death of Selniya…�


...that’s the fatal flaw in your plan…
They always vow to avenge it. The issue is that it has become increasingly bad for your health to be a member of Hamas.
Besides they don't ever need a reason for a terrorist attack. If we employed this methodology in Afghanistan, Pakistan and anywhere else that harbors terrorists we would have been able to achieve the same results, probably better then we have in Iraq with NO loss of life to our troops. As to retaliation here at home, the terrorists are already trying to get us here, which is a matter for Homeland Security. Personally I would have preferred that we (the USA) had waited for the opportunity to get Saddam with a drone.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:39 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

Hamas is gracious enough to keep its leaders in two small geographic areas collectively smaller than Metro Boston, with no mountains to hide in, and effectively surrounded, infiltrated and to some degree occupied by the Israeli military. When Al Qaeda's kind enough to meet those conditions, I'm sure we'll have a turkey shoot. Until then...
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:52 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

For 200 billion bucks we could take an ariel photo of everyone in Afganistan. We could have the same turkey shoot if we put US-size effort behind it. Instead we are now carrying out full blown military strikes in populated areas to take out a few guys. We are the ones manufacturing terrorists. the Israelis get a few civilians once and a while, but if you've ever seem photograph's, its obvious they put a lot of work on the ground into these strikes before hand, compared to our heavy handed tactics. True justice, too. the one where the guy directed terror attacks from a pay phone where they loaded the payphone up with dynamite was classic. Talk about getting an obscene phone call!
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

I'll buy that. But I would certainly like to see a greater emphasis on intel that identifies targets and uses drone to deliver the message. It beats the hell out of our guys standing around waiting to get shot.
What if we could flood the skies over Iraq with drones? And placed a curfew from sundown to sunrise with the possibility of a drone shooting you. We would then own the night forcing the insurgents (and I'm being generous with my terminology) to operate during daylight.
Israel just developed a system that identifies within 1 second exactly where a rocket is launched from and where it will land and can automatically issue a warning and respond within 30 seconds. The article I read said the technology is not available anywhere else on earth, yet.
Falluejah anyone?
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 05:18 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

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LK ONE - 9/19/2004 6:56 PM
Israel just developed a system that identifies within 1 second exactly where a rocket is launched from and where it will land and can automatically issue a warning and respond within 30 seconds. The article I read said the technology is not available anywhere else on earth, yet.
Falluejah anyone?
The kind of rockets the Israelis are tracking are medium range with some kind of ballistic trajectory, i.e. baby scuds. I haven't heard of the Iraqi resistance, in Fallujah or anywhere else, using anything like that (RPGs don't count - they're a flat trajectory personal weapon) - it all seems to be mines, remote controlled bombs, and small unit ambushes, i.e. a war we have to win through good old fashioned infantry (aided by technology and Israeli tactics, to be sure).

Some relevant comments from Strategypage.com:

August 19, 2004: American infantry tactics in Iraq often look like they were copied from methods recently developed in Israel. Fighting Palestinian gunmen and suicide bombers since late 2000, the Israeli army has developed, by trial, error and analysis, infantry tactics that take away many of the inherent advantages irregular fighters have. Called “organized unpredictability� or “swarming tactics,� the Israelis take advantage of the better training and discipline of their infantry to disrupt anything the Palestinians might be up to. Collecting as much information as possible about the enemy (how many men, and weapon, which buildings they live, or hang out, in, what firing positions they might favor, what routes they might favor in moving, who the leaders are, where valuable assets might be stored, and so on), the Israelis move in from multiple directions, including troops landed from helicopters. The Israelis also set up roadblocks, and use electronic warfare (to knock out land line or cell phone communications). Each group of Israeli troops has an objective, and the ability to adapt quickly to unexpected situations. Fighting Palestinians in the mazes that characterized their towns and villages, the unexpected has to be expected. By coming from so many different directions, including blasting through walls and entire buildings, the Israeli assault would often cause the Palestinians to panic, and move recklessly, running into impromptu ambushes set up by the Israelis. Snipers are used a lot. The Israelis favored night operations, where their UAVs overhead were thus hidden, and where the Israeli night vision devices gave them another edge over the Palestinians.

The Israelis have developed a thick playbook of drills for their infantry units, and keep adding, and modifying these to match new Palestinian tactics. They also keep copious records of the opposition. Many of the local Palestinian terrorist gang leaders are known, or suspected, and a network of informers brings in a steady flow of information on these guys. Each operations, which often involves a brigade (two or more infantry battalions and plenty of support troops), is planned with all this information in mind. The use of UAVs with day/night video cams, gives commanders a valuable new tool. The Palestinians know they are being watched, but often cannot avoid going out in the open in order to move.

The Palestinians, of course, also use “swarming tactics,� not so much on purpose, but because that’s what their best efforts add up to. The Palestinians work out ambushes and escape routes as part of a defense plan against Israeli attacks. But the Israeli swarming tactics try to put troops in places the Palestinians won’t expect, and thus destroy any coordinated defense. It’s all about getting the initiative and being in a position to call the shots. The Israelis have largely succeeded, taking very few casualties during these raids. The American military has long exchanged notes with the Israelis, and American tactics in Iraq look remarkably similar to what the Israelis are doing.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 06:11 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

As an avid supporter of Israel I fear – in spite of her ingenious technology and tactics – that her current policy toward the Palestinians is doomed to failure. The 20th Century has few examples of powerful countries winning out over a determined insurgency of “freedom fighters� convinced of the righteousness of their cause and the unshakable evil of their opponent. In spite of their efforts Israelis continue to be attacked, Arab teenagers continue to strap-on bombs, and world support for Israel continues to decline. Can we not put this money and effort to finding better solutions, or is it, as I fear, that the Palestinians and Israelis simply enjoy killing each other?
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2004, 06:27 PM
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RE: The Right Way to Wage War on Terror(ists)

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jdc1244 - 9/19/2004 8:11 PM

As an avid supporter of Israel I fear – in spite of her ingenious technology and tactics – that her current policy toward the Palestinians is doomed to failure.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what the endgame is for each side. To the extent that the "religious right" of both the Palestinians and the Israelis believe that the land between the Jordan River and the sea was deeded to them by God, and must ultimately be theirs in its entirety, nothing short of total victory is acceptable, yet total victory is impossible (short of an unprecedented moral catastrophe on one side or the other). In the interim, however, Sharon's "wall 'em out" plan seems to be working. For most Israelis, the religious right excluded, having a bunch of Palestinians on the other side of a wall going about their daily lives out of sight and out of mind would be a perfectly acceptable conclusion, and with Israeli tactics/technology that would also mean that terrorism within Israel itself could be de minimis. For the Palestinians, who have based their economy on interaction with Israel at the same time that a significant minority have wanted to destroy it, that conclusion would be much less acceptable, and might finally lead to the accession of some politicians who genuinely want peace - maybe even from within Hamas (Nixon goes to China...). The alternative will be poverty and beating their heads against a wall - literally - while the Israeli populace, generally speaking, resumes a degree of normalcy on the other side.

The "how" isn't apparent right now, but I wouldn't be shocked if some form of peace is achieved in the next decade or so, however intractable the mutual hatred appears. They almost achieved it 5 years ago, and if Rabin lived they might have. I remember growing up assuming the cold war, the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union were permanent institutions that would last my lifetime. Things change...
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