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post #31 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 02:25 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

We are practicing "passive containment" on China. Starve them of energy and they can't grow. Problem there is that they will eventually get pissed off and hungry and come and take it from us. Seems that Japan tried that too. They failed. China might be a little tougher to crack than Japan and will probably not hesitate to lob some of their nuclear arsenal our way. We need to forget about some skinny North Koreans and figure out how to deal with the billion or so slave workers that are busy churning out happy meal toys before they turn their hands to something more dangerous.
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post #32 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 05:40 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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Phat_Benz - 8/2/2004 7:10 AM
Actually in the last election I remember it being well over 99%. About as high as Castro's approval rating within Cuba.

The poll I was referring to was taken after Bush declared victory there for the 2nd time. Seems that Saddam has higher ratings amoung his people than Bush does with his own.

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post #33 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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Tim - 8/2/2004 4:40 PM

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Phat_Benz - 8/2/2004 7:10 AM
Actually in the last election I remember it being well over 99%. About as high as Castro's approval rating within Cuba.

The poll I was referring to was taken after Bush declared victory there for the 2nd time. Seems that Saddam has higher ratings amoung his people than Bush does with his own.
Was that poll among the living population or 300,000 to 1,000,000 dead Iraqis that have died at SaDam's hand?

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post #34 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 06:12 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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MikeV - 8/2/2004 11:48 AM
First off SaDam did pose a threat to the US. his own son-in-law, when he defected to Jordan talked about the on-going weapons programs, SaDam was working on long range missles, he was supporting terrorists (PLF, Abud Nidal, etc) Did you protest our preemptive war in Yugoslavia? Milsovic didn't pose a threat to the US. Even if Bush and the entire international intellegence community was wrong (which there's evidence to conclude they were correct, see prewar exports to Syria) that doesn't mean that the war was wrong. The Civil war was to preserve the Union, not to end slavery. Would you say the Civil War was an unjust war?
How did Saddam pose a threat. With rocks and stones?

Bush has spent several billion in US taxpayer dollars looking for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and has come up with none. nada ziltch. They are not there. Bush Jr. can't even find the chemical weapons that his daddy, Bush Sr. sold to Saddam years ago.

The war was a farce and everyone knows it.

As far as Yogoslavia is concerned, maybe you don't realize that Milsovic posed a threat to our NATO allies. NATO initiated that action and the US by Treaty obligation steped with the firepower. On the other hand, NATO refused to help with Iraq despite the fact that Turkey, a NATO ally, was in most danger from Saddam if the allegations made by Bush were true. Thank you for bringing up this comparison because it again shows how unjust war this is as Bush simply lied about the threat.

Any student of history knows the Civil war started because the South attacked a US Fort (Sumter). The USA was directly attacked. Saddam never did this, so I don't see how those two wars are remotely related, but it is a very Republican of you to drag the Civil war into a discussion of Iraq since the actual facts are pretty damning on this President.


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post #35 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 06:20 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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Tim - 8/2/2004 8:12 PM


They are not there. Bush Jr. can't even find the chemical weapons that his daddy, Bush Sr. sold to Saddam years ago.
Isn't this having your cake and eating it to? If Bush Sr did in fact sell these chemical weapons you speak of to Saddam then can't we make the leap of faith that it is in fact true that he (Saddam) was indeed pursuing WMD? Hmmmmmm..........
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post #36 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 06:47 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

No, because we had inspectors under UNSCOM destroying WMDs in Iraq for NINE years. Hard to find something that was already destroyed.

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post #37 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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merouby - 8/2/2004 12:02 PM

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Links to 9/11 been proven
That's odd. Because the 9/11 Commission (who were able to see the proof) think otherwise.

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Saddam was a brutal dictator who murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. We got rid of a brutal dictator and are helping to set up a freedom-based government.
That's not why we went to war, nor is it any different from the other 100 or so governments with their own dictatorships.

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No more women maimed or raped (oops, they don't count).
You mean they finally got rid of the Americans at Abu Ghraib??!

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Did you protest our preemptive war in Yugoslavia?
That wasn't preemptive. Serbian armies were attacking both the Bosnians and the Croats. We went in under NATO to protect those citizens ASKING US for OUR AID. Who asked for our aid in Iraq?? No one. Unless you mean the failed 'uprising' that Bush Sr. walked away from after pledging support.

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Even if Bush and the entire international intellegence community was wrong (which there's evidence to conclude they were correct, see prewar exports to Syria) that doesn't mean that the war was wrong.
Actually, it does mean the war is VERY wrong. See reasoning above.

And TCP, I do see a lot of sense in what you say. Granted, I don't think hardening our approach towards the Iraqis is the answer. I would actually IMMEDIATELY pull our troops out and let the UN do it's job, if it turns to sh!t (which I agree with you, it probably will). Send a couple of billions in reperations to the Iraqis with a warm hearted apology saying "Sorry are so-called 'intellegence' was wrong".

Didnt we also mess up Vietnam? Didnt we send them reperations when we tried to change their form of gevernment and also try to impose democracy? We pulled out and it fixed itself in Vietnam. As a result the Vietnamese don't see the US as good friends. We should expect the same from Iraq.

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As for an Assassin, that would have left his sons to step in and would not have changed much.
Easy. Kill them too. We would have really won the hearts and minds of the Iraqis this way FOR REAL.

BTW, what does this have to do with Kerry's speech?
That's pretty impressive, you quote three different posters without making mention to any of them.

A couple of those were mine which I will definitely respond to along with a few others.

As for the brutal dictator thing you say that there are 100 or so other governments with their own dictatorships. 100 huh? That's a pretty big number. Care to list those, or at least 60 of them, I'd be interested to see 100 contries today that are rulled by "Dictators," and brutal ones at that. Or, was this just another one of those numbers that you keep shoved somewhere for pulling out when the time is right?

Abu Grahib, I have not heard of any women, or men for that matter, being mamed and raped. Is this just another fact that you keep next to those numbers or do you have some credable link?

Your plan to pull out of Iraq and to allow the UN to take over is laughable. It says to me that your emotions have gotten the best of you and you don't look at the subject with an open and level mind. If we were to just walk away from Iraq and give it to the UN would would have another Lebanon in Iraq. You proffess to be well aquinted with politics of the region. Surely you know of the Syrian influence in Beirut and much of Lebanon. There are a number of anti-Isreali terroritsts groups opperating out of Lebanon, yet financed and suported by Iran and Syria. Leaving Iraq to the UN would allow Iran to gain major influence in Iraq and eventually to become a major power in the world thanks to Iraq's huge oil and gas reserves and access to the gulf. There are a ton of historical similarities between Iraq and Lebanon, their paths could be easily be to the same end. On the otherside of the coin, a successful Iraq boardering moderate states like Jordan, Turkey and Kuwait would be huge in the long term prospect of changing the middle east to our advantage.

And for assassinating SaDam, easier said than done. As much as we want to believe Tom Clancey books and movies we don't have that type of "actionable intellegence." And I know you guys don't want to hear this, but thank Clinton for failing to recognize the need for more human intellegence.

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post #38 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 07:22 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

Quote:
merouby - 8/2/2004 8:47 PM

No, because we had inspectors under UNSCOM destroying WMDs in Iraq for NINE years. Hard to find something that was already destroyed.
So in your opinion, he's got a clean slate after nine years of being deceitful with inspectors? Are we to say 'OK the weapons are all gone now and he promises not to get anymore?' Boy, for a non-Catholic you sure seem give a lot of weight to absolution.
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post #39 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 07:31 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

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As for the brutal dictator thing you say that there are 100 or so other governments with their own dictatorships. 100 huh? That's a pretty big number. Care to list those, or at least 60 of them, I'd be interested to see 100 contries today that are rulled by "Dictators," and brutal ones at that. Or, was this just another one of those numbers that you keep shoved somewhere for pulling out when the time is right?
That's easy to answer....

* All of Africa except South Africa (you count them)
* All of the Middle East except Israel
* All of Asia (IMO China is a dictatorship) except Turkey & India
* All of South America (in one way or form)

That's at least 100 there.

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Abu Grahib, I have not heard of any women, or men for that matter, being mamed and raped. Is this just another fact that you keep next to those numbers or do you have some credable link?
Then you haven't heard. Even the US admits to servicemen fondling, raping and violating women inmates.

Read it and weep. Remember to be DAMN PROUD of your servicemen while you read this...

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/060604_rape.htm

Quote:
Your plan to pull out of Iraq and to allow the UN to take over is laughable.
Why is that laughable? That's what happened with Korea. BTW, who cares who owns what out there? We're not in the business of placing puppet regimes or are we? Does the word 'Nicaragua' ring a bell??

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And I know you guys don't want to hear this, but thank Clinton for failing to recognize the need for more human intellegence.
How about a President that spent the 8 months prior to Sept 11th spending 42% of his time on vacations. Seemed that human intelligence is something he didn't wanna spend time on. Then again, I can't blame Bush. You need human intelligence to understand the need for human intelligence.

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post #40 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-02-2004, 07:38 PM
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RE: Kerry's Speech

Quote:
merouby - 8/2/2004 2:02 PM

Quote:
No more women maimed or raped (oops, they don't count).
You mean they finally got rid of the Americans at Abu Ghraib??!
If you expect me to show you any respect, do not use my words out of context! This is so typical - twist things around to suit your own agenda.

Hey, I just came up with a new word - Kerryism: to twist words for one's own use or flip-flop political stances as needed.

But I guess respect is something you know nothing about...

TCP and MikeV - I really appreciate your thoughtful and intelligent views. It's nice to see that there are people that can express viewpoints without resorting to junior-high school antics...

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