Oil Change: Sucking or Dripping? - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mercedes Benz of Florida View Post
I ONLY recommend Draining the Oil "old-style".
Remove your plastic covering at the bottom.
Drain the Oil
Replace the Copper Crush Washer
Remove and Replace Oil Filter and Clean the Oil Filter Housing.
Remember to occasionally replace the Oil Cap Gasket.

Why you remove the Oil Pan is beyond me.
It is so unnecessary.
If you want to get the gunk out, drop a quart of diesel fuel in the Old Oil or an Engine Oil Cleaner, run it through for 15 minutes, THEN change your Oil.

Removing the Pan? Not me!
Curious, to my knowledge there is not an MB dealer in the US that performs an oil change *other than* by the vacuum extraction method. I don't think there is any meaningful difference between the two methods and if I had a garage and a place to keep even more stuff I don't think I'd have a problem moving to the extraction method.

Just a couple of thoughts, though. First you didn't mention the oil filter O-rings, one should never buy just the filter but the filter kit and then replace the O-rings as part of the process.

Second, there is no real reason to replace the filler cap gasket. I have had the filler cap off my car three times in the 55,000 miles I've owned my car which equates to the times I added oil between changes. For refilling during an oil change, leave the cap alone. Instead, after you have the oil out and before you reinstall the filter assembly, just pour the new oil down the filter housing hole. Less spills, pours in more quickly...DONE!

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by keyhole View Post
My CLK needs 8 litres (8.45 US quarts) of oil changed. Is there a Topsider that can contain that quantity of oil?
Hi, Keyhole. Here's a link to one that holds TEN USQ, don't know if they ship outside the US but the brand is probably on ebay.uk: Motive Products 1708 - Motive Products Power Extractors

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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My CLK needs 8 litres (8.45 US quarts) of oil changed. Is there a Topsider that can contain that quantity of oil?
Keyhole:

Harbor Freight makes some with manual or power sucking and tanks in all sizes, for marine and aircraft applications. In Norfolk there probably are shops for pleasure boats that carry all kind of these things.

Cheers,

Joe
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
IMHO the key word in your post is "supposedly". It's an interesting theory, but all those passages drain back to the top of the head, the cam valley or the sump, so all you're doing is drawing air down through them equally. And fluid physics tells you that a fluid will always follow the path of least resistance, so if you did somehow have oil in a passage but the vacuum could apply elsewhere, it wouldn't even disturb the fluid.
On the oil pan idea, I have to say that in all the time I've been on the various fora, I've never heard *anyone* suggest regularly removing the oil pan. Mine is staying on until the sensor fails or I'm rebuilding the thing, seems like that's just a way to ask for leaks or introduce dirt. But if it helps you sleep better at night, hey, have at it.
Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
Hi Greg:

If the vacuum in the tank is such that air would pour at pressure greater than atmospheric, even if you supposedly not draw any further oil, the air passing thru will carry any microdebris in its path. I am not going to suggest to get in any chemical fluid (in gas, liquid or suspension form), as I do on occasion, because the formulation would depend upon the materials of the engine components and the neutralizing cleanup. I am not sold on commercial additives or generic cleaning methods, so if the field gets mudded it's solely my fault. The only additive I have accepted using in the past (with good results, I may add) is Techron Injector Cleaner (1 every 1000 miles or so) in pre-direct-injection engines.

As for the pan removal, I suggest you read threads for 1980-2000 cars and some experiences are more amusing (when you are not the owner) that learning that your worst competitor needs a root canal. There are even pictures in W210. So, if people neglects their cars waiting for a signal (from the OBC or otherwise) is very good to recommend drastic preventive maintenance. I take it a person who opens the pan and finds it spotless at 15k or 60k miles will be intelligent to gage by the color and appearance of the oil removed whether his system got dirty enough to check.

Fill free to disagree but I spent almost 40 years designing, installing the factories, trouble shooting, and overseeing the manufacture of pressure vessels, and they had to perform trouble free and without leaks for 10 years. So technically I became a japanese by performance. Sorry.

Cheers and happy motoring, Joe.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 05:36 PM
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After doing oil changes with three different methods (draining, siphoning, vacuuming), I am convinced that vacuuming removes the most oil.

See my setup below (original credit to Kajtek1)

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210...cking-oil.html

By "siphoning", I mean one inserts a thin tube so the bottom of the inserted tube is below the oil level in the pan. Most DIYers use this setup and I do not think it is 100% vacuuming because it only removes the oil in the pan that is above the bottom if the inserted tube.

By "vacuuming", I mean one uses the dipstick tube as the transfer tube. Here all oil will be vacuumed out.

I have never removed so much oil with my modified method show above. In my 1997 E320, I only put in 6.5 quarts in order to observe the Mercedes TSB as not to exceed the oil level beyond the middle of the MIN-MAX and I vacuumed out 7 quarts this spring.

I am sold on this true vacuuming method of oil removal.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 06:50 PM
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Hi Greg:

If the vacuum in the tank is such that air would pour at pressure greater than atmospheric, even if you supposedly not draw any further oil, the air passing thru will carry any microdebris in its path. I am not going to suggest to get in any chemical fluid (in gas, liquid or suspension form), as I do on occasion, because the formulation would depend upon the materials of the engine components and the neutralizing cleanup. I am not sold on commercial additives or generic cleaning methods, so if the field gets mudded it's solely my fault. The only additive I have accepted using in the past (with good results, I may add) is Techron Injector Cleaner (1 every 1000 miles or so) in pre-direct-injection engines.

As for the pan removal, I suggest you read threads for 1980-2000 cars and some experiences are more amusing (when you are not the owner) that learning that your worst competitor needs a root canal. There are even pictures in W210. So, if people neglects their cars waiting for a signal (from the OBC or otherwise) is very good to recommend drastic preventive maintenance. I take it a person who opens the pan and finds it spotless at 15k or 60k miles will be intelligent to gage by the color and appearance of the oil removed whether his system got dirty enough to check.

Fill free to disagree but I spent almost 40 years designing, installing the factories, trouble shooting, and overseeing the manufacture of pressure vessels, and they had to perform trouble free and without leaks for 10 years. So technically I became a japanese by performance. Sorry.

Cheers and happy motoring, Joe.
Well, I'm far more concerned with removing the suspended particulates and degraded oil from the engine; if we're going to start worrying about microscopic things that might suspend into air being drawn in a vacuum tube, that's really the short hairs, I can just stick the shopvac hose onto the oil filter housing with the filter out after I've drained it, too, right?

I went and searched in the 210 forum, found no pictures or really even any negative discussion of sludge for the post 2000 M112 (didn't see anything prior, either, although I did see a passing reference to that date being of significance, purportedly due to Mobil1's adoption). If you know of any threads suggested by your reference please do post them. (Most threads I found discussing sludge were of the buildup on the cap, which is the moisture issue, and we both know if you see that in your oil pan, you're about to spend a whole lot of money...)

I didn't mean to sound disagreeable, Joe, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm not convinced either way that oil changes, properly done, will make a drastic difference on longevity based solely on the change method (vampire vs. gravity). The far greater concern, to me, is that it be done when it needs to be done with the proper oil and filter; as you note in one post about the plus 100,000 mile car, I don't doubt you could run conventional Valvoline 5W30 with a paper filter in the 112 and 113 with 7,500 mile change intervals and get to 100K without a problem. Doubtful you'll get to 200K though.

As far as the reason for the change, more than one dealer has said it's because it simplifies maintenance and reduces the potential for complications, and they designed the engine with vacuum extraction in mind. Again, I'm not trying to argue the point, but I would respectfully submit that you're overthinking it. It's easier, saves time and is simpler, which are three great advantages for the dealer network.

As far as the sump pan goes, I'm over the 100K point and coming up on an oil change. I may consider dropping the pan just for the educational exercise, although if it is in fact sludged-up, there's not much I can do at this point.

I have to admit that based on some recent reading, I am considering going to a group IV synthetic, though.

Have a great weekend...and enjoy the ride,
Greg

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 06:58 PM
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I have to admit that based on some recent reading, I am considering going to a group IV synthetic, though.
Greg
Hey, Greg, will this really happen? I see rolleyes, LOL.

That would limit very few oils available in the USA (certain Amsoil, Redline, and certain Royal Purple.)
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Well, I'm far more concerned with removing the suspended particulates and degraded oil from the engine; if we're going to start worrying about microscopic things that might suspend into air being drawn in a vacuum tube, that's really the short hairs, I can just stick the shopvac hose onto the oil filter housing with the filter out after I've drained it, too, right?

I went and searched in the 210 forum, found no pictures or really even any negative discussion of sludge for the post 2000 M112 (didn't see anything prior, either, although I did see a passing reference to that date being of significance, purportedly due to Mobil1's adoption). If you know of any threads suggested by your reference please do post them. (Most threads I found discussing sludge were of the buildup on the cap, which is the moisture issue, and we both know if you see that in your oil pan, you're about to spend a whole lot of money...)

I didn't mean to sound disagreeable, Joe, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm not convinced either way that oil changes, properly done, will make a drastic difference on longevity based solely on the change method (vampire vs. gravity). The far greater concern, to me, is that it be done when it needs to be done with the proper oil and filter; as you note in one post about the plus 100,000 mile car, I don't doubt you could run conventional Valvoline 5W30 with a paper filter in the 112 and 113 with 7,500 mile change intervals and get to 100K without a problem. Doubtful you'll get to 200K though.

As far as the reason for the change, more than one dealer has said it's because it simplifies maintenance and reduces the potential for complications, and they designed the engine with vacuum extraction in mind. Again, I'm not trying to argue the point, but I would respectfully submit that you're overthinking it. It's easier, saves time and is simpler, which are three great advantages for the dealer network.

As far as the sump pan goes, I'm over the 100K point and coming up on an oil change. I may consider dropping the pan just for the educational exercise, although if it is in fact sludged-up, there's not much I can do at this point.

I have to admit that based on some recent reading, I am considering going to a group IV synthetic, though.

Have a great weekend...and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Hi Greg:

Perhaps I'm a little pissed off by my current predicament. I'm accustomed to American standards, bought a C class new MB in Argentina, hopefully as a transition until I can get a "new" just launched in Europe E, and I find that MB does not accept orders, standard or special, for parts or accessories not brought by Company Policy or by dealer demand. The biggest dealer, who bought the Fangio name, is a Brazilian outfit whose owners had their crystallines surgically changed by new ones with the $ sign carved in, and zero interest for customer service or satisfaction. They read your mind and use Valvoline Synthetic 5W30 and paper filters. I have to bring my parts from abroad and fortunately I have a great person who lets my mind lead his hands. Now I have to locate a better (quieter) place to seat my breaks.
So perhaps I overreacted with too much preventive maintenance, but I really found two different posts of people who found "sludge" in their pans and it drove me berserk. One I recall was even unintended, his plug was frozen and tore it up, so he unscrew the pan to discharge the oil and voilÃ*. He was afterwards grateful that he found the plug frozen. The other found a water leak into the oil and, though not happy about the find got concerned enough to face the music. Of course, they both were cars with a few miles and years on them. I'm convinced that if the worse case scenario is covered you'll always be safe. And from what I read, most in the threads ride cars with a few years on, and some not knowing in what condition. This is why you may wish to be more conservative in your recommendations (a little a la Murphy because sh..t happens and runs downhill).
So, neither you came heavy nor there are hard feelings, I'll keep doing my thing and you yours. That's life, though now I pace to listen a lot more at what I didn't use to wish to hear. But it's that I'm retired and a business has to be a democratic dictatorship to be successful, not so social interaction.

Cheers, and happy motoring to you too. Joe


P.S. The gas (or fluid) under pressure is more geared to the interstitial spaces than the large passages in the galleries, it's not to introduce impurities with the air. In another vein, and no joke, I have a filter connected to the car cleaning hose to soften and filter the water of impurities (mainly Ca and Na salts). And whether you laugh or not my gadgets work.

Last edited by JoeVal; 04-25-2009 at 02:40 PM.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 02:33 PM
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Hey, Greg, will this really happen? I see rolleyes, LOL.

That would limit very few oils available in the USA (certain Amsoil, Redline, and certain Royal Purple.)
Mobil 1 is a group 4 oil.

Kent Christensen
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 02:47 PM
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Mobil 1 is a group 4 oil.
To which Mobil1 do you refer (not just viscosity but location)? There is much discussion here and elsewhere that even the spec 0W40 we pour in here in the US is not, but is in Europe, and Mobil1's website is strangely quiet on the topic.
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