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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 03:15 PM
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JapTrapLex - Excellent reply. Well documented and nicely argued. I could not agree more. My 2005 is as good as the 1995. Fit and finish is fantastic. I have had company cars with trim that falls off. Seals that get sucked into the tailgate and rattles that appear out of the blue. And yes, one of them was CR's beloved Camry.
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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ProV1x View Post
on a side note: why does Mercedes have such $hitty resale value..?
Have you seen the resale value of any cars these days? A couple years ago the entire car market overflooded the market with many leases and everything. That combined with the fact that nobody keeps cars long these days. Basically every car company right now is suffering from bad resale value.
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 03:57 PM
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It is true that all used car price has collapsed lately. The price of Mercedes falls faster than other makes (as a percentage).

Here are three cars, all 2003 models, about 5 years old with 60,000 miles. The current prices are from KBB, Private - Good Condition

Mercedes E320 - $21,920 (MSRP $46,950) 47% value left
Lexus ES300 - $17,045 (MSRP $31,625) 54% value left
BMW 525i - $19,145 (MSRP $37,600) 51% value left
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JapTrapLex View Post
As an owner of one of the first model year 2000 S-Class sedans to roll off the boat here in America (production date 2/99) I have been nothing but completely satisfied with my purchase nearly 8 years and 110k miles later. I can count only one time my S430 has been in the shop for anything other than routine maintenance, and that was to replace a faulty instrument cluster (paid for by MB under warranty).

As for my 2007 SL550... Stunning looks, great performance, first class interior... what more could you ask for? Certainly no lack of quality here.


JD Power and Associates ranked Mercedes-Benz near the top, in 5th place overall, per initial quality and customer satisfaction for 2007. The S class, E class and SL ranked highest in their respective segments.

"Mercedes-Benz shows dramatic improvement, particularly with its newly-redesigned S-Class, which improves 63 PP100,” said Oddes. “Overall, Mercedes-Benz improves its nameplate rank by 20 positions—the greatest rank increase of any nameplate in the study. All Mercedes-Benz models in the study improved substantially, and the breadth and speed of these improvements demonstrates the Mercedes-Benz commitment to quality."

"For the second consecutive year, Porsche tops the overall nameplate rankings, averaging 91 PP100. Following in the rankings are Lexus, Lincoln, Honda and Mercedes-Benz, respectively."

By the way, one reason why MB has ranked lower in past years in JD Power surveys is because of a little known fact regarding how scores are calculated. A car may have few defects, but can still be marked down for something ridiculous like control placement. In other words, an impeccable quality score can be marred by a "hard to use" navigation system which, as far as JD Power is concerned, counts somehow as a measure of quality. And by "hard to use" I mean confusing for computer illiterate geriatrics with no concept of how standard electronic interfaces operate. You know, cursors, menus, split screen layout, using the back button, highlighting what you want to select... stuff like that.

"Without considering both quality factors, onemight fail to recognize vehicles that are, in fact, excellent in certain ways,” said Ivers. “For example, BMW vehicles have among the fewest defects and malfunctions, along with Toyota. But BMW approaches controls and displays in a way that creates some problems for customers, leading to more design-related problems overall than Toyota incurs. Automakers differ significantly in how they define quality and what parts of the organization they hold accountable for it. Clearing both critical quality hurdles is an accomplishment experienced by only a limited number of brands."

Reminds me of the time I rented a BMW in Germany, complete with the dreaded, terribly complex i-drive interface. In under 60 seconds I had changed the system language from German to English and in under 2 minutes had entered in the address of my hotel in the GPS and scaled the map appropriately... so much for hard to use I guess. Same thing with the MB COMAND system that journalists like to bitch and moan about. Should Toyota really get more points for "quality" from JD Power because its "My First GPS" system was designed by FisherPrice with all sorts of big colorful touchscreen buttons? Please... are people really this stupid?

Consumer Reports is a hack. From a quantitative standpoint, Mercedes-Benz models rank among the highest in their road tests and comparisons. Unfortunately due to their deeply flawed "reliability" survey, CR rates Mercedes-Benz models "below average" in "reliability." I put reliability in quotes because the CR definition of reliability isn't exactly traditional. A car with a solid engine, transmission, etcetera can be ranked low because it has an "unreliable" radio or "unreliable" power window switches... relatively unimportant things. Annoying? Yes. Important? Not so much.

Not only are CR reliability rankings flawed, they are misleading to say the least. If you can even take CR car reviews seriously at all, keep in mind that they use a RELATIVE measure of reliability, NOT an ABSOLUTE measure. This cannot be overstressed. In other words, CR measures reliability compared to a class average. A car that is relatively reliable can still have a huge black circle just because it falls slightly below the average in its ranking.

For example, lets say that there are 10 categories that CR uses to measure overall reliability in its flawed annual survey. Car A receives a score of "excellent" in each category. Car B receives a score of "excellent" in 9 categories but "very good" in 1 category. In absolute terms, car A and car B both rank high in reliability, but in relative terms, car B scores "below average/poor" in reliability.

Even more unfortunate than this deceptive survey is how people like yourself pick up the latest CR rag and make grandiose predictions about a Mercedes apocalypse without reading the fine print or critically analyzing what CR is actually saying.

I remember a few years ago when I was looking to purchase a BMW X5, I casually looked over the annual CR reliability report just for laughs. I saw the overall reliability rating for the X5 was "poor." I then turned to the detailed reliability rating of the BMW X5 and saw that in every category it had scored at least "average" and mostly "good" or "excellent." In other words, a reliable car made to look unreliable by the hacks at CR who accurately assume that most readers don't read the fine print or investigate the details of their rankings.

ROFL. Did you see the latest comparison where they gave the Toyota LS460 a higher ranking than the Mercedes S550? They blatantly admitted that the S500 was better at everything except gas mileage and "user friendliness". Better ride, better comfort, luxury, handling, brakes, engine... you name it. Even the fit and finish was deemed better on the S. Yet somehow the Lexus Celsior came out on top? Just goes to show you what kind of people CR cater to... old timers more interested in getting their senior citizen discount at the International House of Pancakes than how their car looks, drives or performs.

Give me a fucking break. CR should stick to toasters and dishwashers. Its all they've ever been good at anyway.

As far as reliability is concerned, MB may not have been among the best since about 2000 (so I keep hearing... though it hasn't been my experience at all). Due to the highly complex, cutting edge nature of their cars, especially one ahead of its time like the W220, this isn't exactly surprising. Certainly not excusable, but definitely not unexpected. Anyway, comparing the reliability of a 70s MB to a 2000+ MB is like comparing a toaster to a space shuttle... Point moot.

Despite these qualms, all indications point to MB steadily improving in this area. Even MB leadership has admitted to recently taking steps to improve reliability by holding third party suppliers and plant operations to higher standards. Just look at the latest JD Power IQS study for proof. Better yet, sit inside a new S class and tell me it doesn't reek of class and solid engineering.

As far as craftsmanship is concerned I'm not sure they have lost their edge at all. All the reviews I have read, certainly in the last 3 or 4 years, have had nothing but high praise for quality and fit and finish. Even CR rates MB highly in this area. Even Toyota's LS460 was said to have poor fitting panels compared to the well finished S550 in a recent review.

As long as MB continues building on its long history of engineering innovation, and designs exceptionally safe, luxurious and good looking cars, I'll be happy. If the price to pay for this is a slightly less user friendly navigation system or less reliable power window motor... so be it.

In any event, most would agree that Mercedes heading back to the top in the quality and reliability department... so looks like its a win-win for everyone.
You sure hate old people, don't you, remember that one day YOU TOO will get old, and will be driving a Mercury Grand Marquis,Palm Beach Edition, or a Buick Park Avenue, shopping for DEPENDS, and looking for the Early Bird Senior Citizens special at IHOP.

So you can figure out BMW's ridiculous idrive in 5 minutes flat. Good for you.
Do you have a Cell phone stuck inyour ear when you drive, an iPhone, ipod, and video games in your dashboard too, like "Distracto"?

You sound like some arrogant Yuppie left over from the 80's. You so need to get over yourself.

Mercedes built a LOT of bad cars from about 2000 -2006, you are just lucky that you didn't get one of them. They are getting better again.

You are a self satisfied, condescending, arrogant miserable POS. I hope you NEVER spawn, you are so Gordon Gecko.

But if you DO, I hope you have TEN children, all of them EXACTLY LIKE YOU.

Your rant on a forum like this is just like some 4th grader yelling out the window of a school bus.

Nobody can really hear you very much, and at the end of the ride, the world will still be the same, and somebody will take away your lunch money

And btw, "JapTrapLex" sounds pretty damned racist. Did you get that from som Marketing Focus Group or did you dream it up all by yourself?

<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.

"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<

Last edited by cascade; 10-19-2007 at 04:29 PM.
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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 07:22 PM
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Cool Koon and Gross

Apples and Oranges.

MB may not be the quality of the 90's MB.
However, it is still superior to ANYTHING else on the market except maybe BMW.
There is no logical comparison.
Go drive a jap-benz or Chevy if it makes you feel superior.
What ever it takes, just go do it ( and stay away from us).


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Floats like a CADI
Stings like a BMR
Stingy as a Prius
and.... all Mercedes Benz.
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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 07:54 PM
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I think 10 or 20 years from now we are going to find out that sometime in the 1990s there was a secret meeting of all the major automakers, at a farmhouse somewhere, where they all agreed to stop making anything but disposable cars, so that they could all sell more cars sans long-lived competition. MB is just holding their end of that bargain.
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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by loubapache View Post
Pro, wait another 6 - 12 months and these high quality Mercedes will depreciate even more.

I was watching CNBC about the mini-market crash today. High end car repossession is on the rise. Houses go first, then cars. You would think it is the other way but people like to hold onto their high quality Mercedes just a bit longer than the house so the cars still show no rust.

If you take a look at Autotrader, many post 200 Mercedes have "Reduced" next to the price.

Cars For Sale: Car Details - AutoTrader.com

The above car (very close to me and I bought my wagon from him) started at $18.9k, reduced to $17.9k, then to $16.9k, now to $15.9k. I do not think it will sell at that price.
Drove that E430 and the Interior is like a Animal Shelter.. all scratched up.... not worth 12.k
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 08:42 PM
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Small word, MBZ81. I am in Big Rapids.

Well, he might have to sell below $12k.
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 10:11 PM
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Cascade: Quote: You are a self satisfied, condescending, arrogant miserable POS. I hope you NEVER spawn, you are so Gordon Gecko. End Quote
Don't be so Hippocratic!!! JapTrapLex may have gotten a little heated in his well articulated and thought out debate, but that gives you NO REASON to insult him in the way you did. You provided ABSOLUTELY NOTHING useful in your reply, besides YOUR condescending, arrogant and miserable comments.
In my experience with Mercedes, I have been through my share of electronic failures, however the service of my dealership has left me feeling like I would NEVER choose anything less that a Mercedes Benz. With every visit, I leave with a brand new loaner car, with no dealer logo's on the windows, completely free of charge to me including the fuel. When I pick up my car, it is freshly detailed. I keep hearing how many domestic and Asian manufacturers actually charge you to clean the car or will refer you to a rental company when in for warranty service!
To myself, theres a sense of pride, joy, excitement as well as the occasional grief when something goes wrong when getting into my car. However, with all the things that have gone wrong with my car, every time I get it back, I am excited to drive it, after all, thats why I bought it in the first place right?
In my opinion, the good certainly out weights the bad. I will continue to purchase MB's in the future
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 10:29 PM
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Too bad for me I got one of the unreliable '06 ML350
I'm glad it's still under warranty and when that is done, I'll weigh our option to keep or sell.

06 ML350, Pewter, Black Leather Seats, Navteq '12, Sunroof, Trim Package, Entertainment Package (Harman Kardon Surround w/ 5 Disc Changer, Auxillary Jack), Brown Birds Eye Maple Wood, Rear Side Airbags, Trailer Hitch, Heated Front Seats, Power Liftgate, 20% OE rear colored glass.
Mod: Front Grill Chrome Kit, Suntek HP 35% tinted front windows, Goodyear Fortera 245/65/17, Duralast battery
Mileage: 134K mi (May'17)
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