S CLASS COLD AIR INTAKE. - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KGSPORT
Please understand that I am not stating this system delivers more power because it delivers cooler air to the combustion chamber. This system delivers more power, just like any other high performance after market intake system, simply by elimination as much restriction as possible in the air flow.
Interesting. Is that why you're representing/marketing it as a "Cold Air Intake"? Not trying to bust your chops here, but what you have built is clearly not a cold air intake.

Since it doesn't sound as though you engineered a solution so much as thought up one, we have to take your word for it that it actually flows more air to the engine. Accepting that as true -- for the sake of argument -- then the choice is "more air, but warmer" or "stock airflow, but cooler".

And for those who don't choose to accept that representation, another alternative is that the sound-deadening aspect of the now-eliminated stock airbox yields the result sought by teen boys everywhere: noise = power.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. (Winston Churchill)
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MarcusF View Post
The filter in your ad flows 900 CFM? K&N must have really improved their filtering capabilities. A few short years ago the largest filter K&N produced could flow 900 CFM. Their old 900 CFM filter was considerably larger than the one in your picture. Their current ads still claim "up to 900 CFM", which used to refer to their super-sized filter.

K&N currently advertises that their cotton fiber filters typically flow 30% more air than a comparable paper filter. The flip side of that is - if the K&N filtering material has less than 77% of the surface area of the paper filtering material that it's replacing, there will be a reduction in potential air flow (77 * 1.3 = 100.1). Hence the reason for my asking about the surface area.

As you see in the attached photo, some people try to keep the K&N surface area equal to the surface area of the filter they're replacing - resulting in an increase in potential air flow (although there are still other issues).

Why are you posting a pic of a forced induction engine?? A forced induction engine maintains the PSI anyways. Furthermore, have you heard of the bottleneck effect??

The picture you posted is mostly marketing. On that set-up the bottleneck effect is where those two 3-inch pips turn into a single 3-inch pipe right after the Y-pipe. I am sure a single 3-inch pipe would have accommodated the flow into that final 3-inch opening.

I do not mean to be rude or anything, but I do not have time to get into physics 101 right now. Go check out the pics of 700-800 HP ingle turbo Supras using filters no bigger then the one I have.

To put an end to this, I have a challenge. I will race any stock S430 or S500. I am willing to drive 100 miles from my area for this challenge. If anyone beats me, I will apologize to everyone in here, and I will refund the money for all the units I have sold.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Interesting. Is that why you're representing/marketing it as a "Cold Air Intake"? Not trying to bust your chops here, but what you have built is clearly not a cold air intake.

Since it doesn't sound as though you engineered a solution so much as thought up one, we have to take your word for it that it actually flows more air to the engine. Accepting that as true -- for the sake of argument -- then the choice is "more air, but warmer" or "stock airflow, but cooler".

And for those who don't choose to accept that representation, another alternative is that the sound-deadening aspect of the now-eliminated stock airbox yields the result sought by teen boys everywhere: noise = power.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
Even though the car runs about 10 degrees cooler on the freeway, your right, it is not a cold air intake. I should have titled it as, "High flow intake".

This was just a weekend project that turned out good on my family far. I have been into motors ports for over 10 years, and trust me I do not think more noise =power. Like I told the pervious guy, I am up for the challenge. Bring it on.

This is a little sample of the real fast cars we work on, and enjoy most of the time. I wont put on name on anything that doesn’t work. Enjoy.

YouTube - CAMARO SS VS SL55
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KGSPORT View Post
Even though the car runs about 10 degrees cooler on the freeway, your right, it is not a cold air intake. I should have titled it as, "High flow intake".

This was just a weekend project that turned out good on my family far. I have been into motors ports for over 10 years, and trust me I do not think more noise =power. Like I told the pervious guy, I am up for the challenge. Bring it on.
Just a thought, but why not end the speculation and possibility of dispute? Put the offer out to the first member near you to bring his car to you. Have him/her follow you to a performance shop. Dyno the member's car throughout the rev range. Install your system and repeat the dyno process. Pay the shop and give a copy of the results and the unit to the willing member as a thank you for his/her time. Then post the results.
I think that's a challenge we'd all embrace as fair -- and as impartial as it needs to be.
Aside from something like that you're left with conjecture and speculation and I guess most of the folks on the forum are not willing to dump years of MB design and engineering for vague notions of 'My car can beat your car.'
Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. (Winston Churchill)

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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Just a thought, but why not end the speculation and possibility of dispute? Put the offer out to the first member near you to bring his car to you. Have him/her follow you to a performance shop. Dyno the member's car throughout the rev range. Install your system and repeat the dyno process. Pay the shop and give a copy of the results and the unit to the willing member as a thank you for his/her time. Then post the results.
I think that's a challenge we'd all embrace as fair and as impartial as it needs to be.
Aside from something like that you're left with conjecture and speculation and I guess most of the folks on the forum are not willing to dump years of MB design and engineering for vague motions of 'My car can beat your car.'
Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Your missing point. The other member does not even have a S class. I can take my own car to the dyno shop and do a before and after run, and post the results, however I am having problems with the traction control. I do not know how to fully disengage the traction system. Even when its off, it still kicks in on the dyno.

The challenge was this.. I have a 2001 S430 with almost 100,000 miles on it. Since the other member was saying he does not think my system gained any power, I am challenging any S430 OR S500 to race me. It is not because I want to say "my car will beat yours" it's just to prove how much power the gained with my system.
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by KGSPORT View Post
Why are you posting a pic of a forced induction engine?? A forced induction engine maintains the PSI anyways. Furthermore, have you heard of the bottleneck effect??

The picture you posted is mostly marketing. On that set-up the bottleneck effect is where those two 3-inch pips turn into a single 3-inch pipe right after the Y-pipe. I am sure a single 3-inch pipe would have accommodated the flow into that final 3-inch opening.
Obviously you didn’t read my post. I clearly stated

As you see in the attached photo, some people try to keep the K&N surface area equal to the surface area of the filter they're replacing - resulting in an increase in potential air flow (although there are still other issues).

That's the reason I posted "that photo" – to show that some people "try to keep the K&N surface area equal to the surface area of the filter they're replacing". They do that because it "results in an increase in potential air flow". Have you got it yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGSPORT View Post
I do not mean to be rude or anything, but I do not have time to get into physics 101 right now. Go check out the pics of 700-800 HP ingle turbo Supras using filters no bigger then the one I have.

To put an end to this, I have a challenge. I will race any stock S430 or S500. I am willing to drive 100 miles from my area for this challenge. If anyone beats me, I will apologize to everyone in here, and I will refund the money for all the units I have sold.
You don’t have time to get into physics? I think that's pretty obvious. You come on the forum touting the benefits of your home grown intake system with it’s hot air intake and substandard filter. I told you the surface area of the OEM Mann filter, asked you the dimensions of your filter, and you attempted to dodge the question by saying it flows 900 CFM. Let's look at your 900 CFM filter. Tell us, how many pleats does the RC-4700 have? 54, right? How long is each pleat? 6 inches, right? How deep is each one? Is the answer ¾ inch? LOL. And THAT flows NINE HUNDRED CFM? LOL. Go re-read the ad at Summit Racing or wherever you bought your $40 filter on a stick. Or better yet, post ANY URL that says a K&N RC-4700 flows 900 CFM. LOL.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KGSPORT View Post
Your missing point. The other member does not even have a S class. I can take my own car to the dyno shop and do a before and after run, and post the results, however I am having problems with the traction control. I do not know how to fully disengage the traction system. Even when its off, it still kicks in on the dyno.

The challenge was this.. I have a 2001 S430 with almost 100,000 miles on it. Since the other member was saying he does not think my system gained any power, I am challenging any S430 OR S500 to race me. It is not because I want to say "my car will beat yours" it's just to prove how much power the gained with my system.
Ahem. Actually, you are the one missing the point; whether purposefully or simply as a failure to read what is written I can't tell.

I didn't say "the other member". I said ANY member, obviously with the V8 non-AMG S willing to participate in this experiment.

Second, you taking your car to a shop isn't quite the level of "fairness and independence" that would probably wash with most folks, it certainly wouldn't with me, and particularly so when you are already making excuses about traction control, etc.

Third, if you really want to prove "how much power the gained with my system" [sic] then racing another member doesn't prove anything. Indeed, challenging people to a race suggests only that you're younger and stupider than most people who own the S class. Moreover, taking your car to the dyno leaves everyone having to take your word about what has or hasn't been done to your car and given the level of defensiveness and doublespeak you've exhibited, several are probably already leaning towards a certain level of distrust.

That's why I proposed using the car of a neutral party, having it dyno'd, then posting the results. Would that or would that not show definitively any changes to horsepower and torque? Of course. That you're so resistant to such a logical idea (and keep coming back emotionally to this "let's race" scenario) suggests only a few things, none of which are beneficial to your alleged cause.

I don't have an S and that's because I prefer the E-class, so I have no ax to grind here anyway. All I did was suggest a reasonable test to resolve the issues presented by MarcusF et als., and you're not interested. Just say so, there's no point in rehashing your same argument without saying anything new.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. (Winston Churchill)
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MarcusF View Post
Obviously you didn’t read my post. I clearly stated

As you see in the attached photo, some people try to keep the K&N surface area equal to the surface area of the filter they're replacing - resulting in an increase in potential air flow (although there are still other issues).

That's the reason I posted "that photo" – to show that some people "try to keep the K&N surface area equal to the surface area of the filter they're replacing". They do that because it "results in an increase in potential air flow". Have you got it yet?



You don’t have time to get into physics? I think that's pretty obvious. You come on the forum touting the benefits of your home grown intake system with it’s hot air intake and substandard filter. I told you the surface area of the OEM Mann filter, asked you the dimensions of your filter, and you attempted to dodge the question by saying it flows 900 CFM. Let's look at your 900 CFM filter. Tell us, how many pleats does the RC-4700 have? 54, right? How long is each pleat? 6 inches, right? How deep is each one? Is the answer ¾ inch? LOL. And THAT flows NINE HUNDRED CFM? LOL. Go re-read the ad at Summit Racing or wherever you bought your $40 filter on a stick. Or better yet, post ANY URL that says a K&N RC-4700 flows 900 CFM. LOL.
Do you realize that my response was a sarcastic response, because given this situation your question did not make sense about the CFM??? Do you realize that we are talking about 4.3 engine that puts out only 275 hp, and it only revs up to 6k.

Do you know what CFM is, or how to calculate it? Here is the formula.

CFM=(RPM X DISPLACEMENT) / 3456 . Now lets see what is the needed CFM for a S430.

(6000 X 264) / 3456 = 458.333 CFM.

The reason why I did not even take the time to calculate the surface area and so on, is because I am 100% that the filter I have on that set-up is enough to deliver the needed air.

Would you like it better if I said the CFM on that filter is, 800, 700, 600 or even500? It’s still enough. I guarantee you the CFM on that filter is more then 458.333. If you really want to know, I can write an e-mail to K&N and let you know, or you ask.

Bottom line is this. I am stating that for a fact, my design gained more power, and you think otherwise. I am not embarrassed to say that I still do not have the solution how to fully terminate the traction control so it wont kick in during the dyno run. For this reason, I challenged any S430 or S500 to line up with me head up. If you’re so convinced that my set-up is no good, go rent a 2006 S500 and bring it on. I will do it for anything you want.

You have stated your opinions about it, and I have stated all the facts. Everyone I have sold a unit to are very happy with it. I am sure you would like it too if you were to see it in person.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
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Ahem. Actually, you are the one missing the point; whether purposefully or simply as a failure to read what is written I can't tell.

I didn't say "the other member". I said ANY member, obviously with the V8 non-AMG S willing to participate in this experiment.

Second, you taking your car to a shop isn't quite the level of "fairness and independence" that would probably wash with most folks, it certainly wouldn't with me, and particularly so when you are already making excuses about traction control, etc.

Third, if you really want to prove "how much power the gained with my system" [sic] then racing another member doesn't prove anything. Indeed, challenging people to a race suggests only that you're younger and stupider than most people who own the S class. Moreover, taking your car to the dyno leaves everyone having to take your word about what has or hasn't been done to your car and given the level of defensiveness and doublespeak you've exhibited, several are probably already leaning towards a certain level of distrust.

That's why I proposed using the car of a neutral party, having it dyno'd, then posting the results. Would that or would that not show definitively any changes to horsepower and torque? Of course. That you're so resistant to such a logical idea (and keep coming back emotionally to this "let's race" scenario) suggests only a few things, none of which are beneficial to your alleged cause.

I don't have an S and that's because I prefer the E-class, so I have no ax to grind here anyway. All I did was suggest a reasonable test to resolve the issues presented by MarcusF et als., and you're not interested. Just say so, there's no point in rehashing your same argument without saying anything new.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
First of all, If you want to start insulting me, I would suggest to stop because I can start doing the same.

If you’re trying to be a psychologist talking about emotions and stuff, feel free to join the psychology forum. I am sure they will find you younger and stupider there as well, just as I do here.

If you think the traction control is an ‘excuse” to run the car on the dyno, try putting your e-class on the dyno, see what happens. Or if you’re so smart tell me how to fix that problem.

If another member is willing to try my system on their S class, taking it to the dyno and so on, that is fine with me. Anytime.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by KGSPORT View Post
First of all, If you want to start insulting me, I would suggest to stop because I can start doing the same.

If you’re trying to be a psychologist talking about emotions and stuff, feel free to join the psychology forum. I am sure they will find you younger and stupider there as well, just as I do here.

If you think the traction control is an ‘excuse” to run the car on the dyno, try putting your e-class on the dyno, see what happens. Or if you’re so smart tell me how to fix that problem.

If another member is willing to try my system on their S class, taking it to the dyno and so on, that is fine with me. Anytime.
Of course nobody should start insulting others, I'm sure it has not been the intention of anybody posting so far. But there is quite a good agreement that this setup does not do exactly what the original title was suggesting, it would not do miracles without a compromise elsewhere (like taking the air intake filter off completely). If you claim otherwise, the responses tend to go non technical.

On the E-class on dyno, just about anybody here (on the E-class forum at least) know how to put E-class on dyno mode, no problem to measure it then, that's what dyno mode is about. One would not need to be specifically smart to know that, equally I'm not claiming another one would not be smart if he/she was not aware of it.
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