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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-29-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
I am not going to argue with you on this. I deal with 500Es on a daily basis for the past 4 years and know their market value inside and out.

No one with sense takes a 500E to a dealer for trade in. If they do, they get what they deserve.

If you don't understand the 500E or collector car market, that's ok.

As for the curve in the 500 market, much like the 560SEC market it is very near its bottom. NO, they won't just keep going down.
Actually here is one on the market just yesterday, sounds good you should buy it for only $15,000:

Mercedes Benz 500E
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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 12:39 AM
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E500/500E - sui generis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajtek1
So they did what they had to keep the car running.
But they didn't put $10,000 into $6,000 car.
Smart people.
To put it simply, they are very rare, and in a class of their own. It is no coincidence, nor an exaggeration, that their website is called "500ecstacy.com"

Have you ever driven one of them quickly, on the highway? It is like Nirvana..to put it mildly.

They are not just "some car". Or even just "some Mercedes".

It would not be difficult to propound a very cogent argument that they are, in good condition, virtually "priceless" to those in the know about them.

I am aware of at least one example out there whose owner has debadged it BUT has mounted a custom license plate frame over the rear plate which reads simply "PORSCHE"

Clueless or plebian observers of this particular individual's car react with puzzlement or suggest that this is "Shome mishtake shurely"

Those in the know who see it simply grin or smile in wry amusement.

Either way, the reaction to this must be highly gratifying and amusing to the owner of this vehicle...

It apears that our friend McBear is evidently the country's most devoted fan of this marque in the country (which I did not know) and he has the cars to prove it.

I would be curious as to how he is able to track the ongoing sales data of these. What methodogy is used, and where is the data obtained for "comparable" sales? Did many come in colors other than black or pearl black? Are many around with under 125,000 miles?

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<

Last edited by cascade; 08-30-2007 at 12:42 AM.
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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 12:58 AM
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Trade ins at the dealer. a true story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
I am not going to argue with you on this. I deal with 500Es on a daily basis for the past 4 years and know their market value inside and out.

No one with sense takes a 500E to a dealer for trade in. If they do, they get what they deserve.

If you don't understand the 500E or collector car market, that's ok.

As for the curve in the 500 market, much like the 560SEC market it is very near its bottom. NO, they won't just keep going down.
That is a bit harsh. However, it is absolutely correct.

My late uncle purchased a brand new silver 1966 G.T.O. 2 door "post" sedan (not the hardtop) with a manual transmission, manual steering and brakes, black interior, at the end of 1965 from Bianco Pontiac, the dealer for them in San Rafael, California, then located just north of San Francisco.

In 1980, it had 80,000 miles on it and still was stock and totally mint, down to the dog dish hubcaps. For reasons known only to him, he traded it in on a brand new 1981 Chevrolet Citation X11, now known unarguably, to have been one of the worst efforts of GM in that era, IF EVER, that was foisted off on the buying public in the USA. Basically, a brand spanking new, total and utter piece of $hit.

He told me much later, after the fact, that the day he drove it to the Chevrolet dealer in Novato for the first time, intending to trade it in, on the new Citation, EVERY single Chevrolet salesman on the Chevrolet lot literally ran out of the dealership building and all of them were arguing and trying to buy the car off him.

Guess why.

My uncle had never told me in advance of his plans for that car. Years before, I had mentioned I'd like a crack at it should he ever want to get rid of it. We always got along. But he never told me anything until it was too late.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<

Last edited by cascade; 08-30-2007 at 01:28 AM.
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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoin
Actually using for example a 1992 500E with 170000 miles in excellent condition, KBB list just about the same price (so they are good for "special cars"):

Excellent $11,850
Good $10,900
Fair $9,650

Using a 1993 500E with 170000 miles in excellent condition:

Excellent $13,175
Good $12,175
Fair $10,825

So the 1992 model is $1,325 less just due to age, not mileage and one year from now it will be lose more value.
I didn't say they had 170000 miles, i said OVER 170000. And the 1992 is worth MORE because it has a different ECU. One of the two had well over 200000 and one had 178000 if i remember right.

you are fighting an uphill battle trying to fit kelly or edmunds or nada into the 500E market. It doesn't fit. They are based on AVERAGES where there are hundreds and thousands of sold cars to base the prices on, not 10-15.

And to be clear, the 92 won't lose 1300 due to age and lose more the next year in the 500 market. Bear has been in this for longer than i have but i have been here three years and watched the private sell market enough to know that only the sloppy, worn out cars show up at dealers and auctions, and therefore on kbb and edmunds.

the more you know...
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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoin
Actually here is one on the market just yesterday, sounds good you should buy it for only $15,000:

Mercedes Benz 500E
I think I will pass on that one. And his Creative Writing teacher needs to be fired.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade
It apears that our friend McBear is evidently the country's most devoted fan of this marque in the country (which I did not know) and he has the cars to prove it.

I would be curious as to how he is able to track the ongoing sales data of these. What methodogy is used, and where is the data obtained for "comparable" sales? Did many come in colors other than black or pearl black? Are many around with under 125,000 miles?
Actually I am NOT the most devoted fan. If you hang on the 500ecstacy.com forum you will see that there are folks in California, Japan, Oregon and Germany who know the car at least as well.

I just happen to have a shop where I started specializing in 500E work a bit back and it has allowed me to deal with them on both a hobby and professional level.

Since I semi retired as an Systems Analyst/Architect, I put that same level of analysis into the 500E market that I did in my career job.

As for methodology, there are databases that the large dealers use to be aware of cars coming into auction houses on a national basis. They show each car that has been processed through each auction house, who bought it and sell price. I work with two local dealers [one who was co founder of RENNtech and the other a judge at Pebble Beach] who pull all WDBEA036 entries. I then follow up.

I do similar followup with Auto Trader and private sales. There are other who do the same. There is a database of 500Es - not mine- that is being built that tracks all the known cars, which are dead, ownership transfers, purchase price if available etc. It is really a great asset.

This could not be done on a mass produced car but on a car where there are only 1505 brought into the US, it is much easier.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern500
I didn't say they had 170000 miles, i said OVER 170000. And the 1992 is worth MORE because it has a different ECU. One of the two had well over 200000 and one had 178000 if i remember right.

you are fighting an uphill battle trying to fit kelly or edmunds or nada into the 500E market. It doesn't fit. They are based on AVERAGES where there are hundreds and thousands of sold cars to base the prices on, not 10-15.

And to be clear, the 92 won't lose 1300 due to age and lose more the next year in the 500 market. Bear has been in this for longer than i have but i have been here three years and watched the private sell market enough to know that only the sloppy, worn out cars show up at dealers and auctions, and therefore on KBB and Edmunds.

the more you know...
"you are fighting an uphill battle", you must be joking!!! I have randomly proven that the 500Es in the market "NOW", have an asking price within the range (actually a little higher, like any hopeful owner would do) of the prices quoted by Edmunds and KBB! Have NOT SEEN ANY WITHIN THE RANGE QUOTED BY mcbear,
which was:

"We are seeing sub 100K cars in the $20-30K range in very good condition. "

KBB quote for a 1992 500E with 50,000 miles in excellent condition is:

Kelley Blue Book - Enter Your ZIP Code

Excellent - $17,025
Good - $16,075
Fair - $14,825

Just post one example!!!

I follow car auctions on a weekly basis, wishing that I still had my Red 1954 Austin Healey 100-4 and my Black 1956 Austin Healey 100-4.
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoin
"you are fighting an uphill battle", you must be joking!!! I have randomly proven that the 500Es in the market "NOW", have an asking price within the range (actually a little higher, like any hopeful owner would do) of the prices quoted by Edmunds and KBB! Have NOT SEEN ANY WITHIN THE RANGE QUOTED BY mcbear,
which was:

"We are seeing sub 100K cars in the $20-30K range in very good condition. "

KBB quote for a 1992 500E with 50,000 miles in excellent condition is:

Kelley Blue Book - Enter Your ZIP Code

Excellent - $17,025
Good - $16,075
Fair - $14,825

Just post one example!!!
From three weeks ago.

My e500 for sale.
As most of you know I have purchased an e60, thus my only reason for selling the car I thought I never would. I just don't trust my wife with this car. We have a baby on the way as well, which would require a back seat mod to get a car seat in the middle. So here are the details; I have had the car nearly a year. Had 67.5k on purchase now has 69k. Has been here in Tucson most of its life. NO rust, collision evidence etc. I just had it resprayed - clearcoat was funky. $4k paintjob. Replaced rubber around door handles and mirror covers as well. I also had the front license plate delete added after paint job, I do have plate mount as well (freshly painted). Recent oe MB windshield. Has typical clearcoat cracks in center console wood, rest of wood is bright and clear. LF seat has typical worn stitches on bolster, otherwise leather is perfect. No leaks or needed repairs. It also has built in K40 front and rear radar detector, (leds in cluster either side of speedo) -pictured. Custom stereo package with MB quart speakers and Xtant amp. This stuff was all professionally installed before I purchased the car, I do have the receipt for it at over 5k. The front door pockets are "peeling" I do own oe replacements new in box uninstalled, which I will include if I get near my asking price. Original wheels have tires that are dry but still usable, I would be willing to part with the evo2 wheels that are currently pictured, but will not sell my mono III's Generally this is a beautiful car. I'd like 22k

My e500 for sale. - 500Ecstasy.com | everybody get your ROLL on

You won't be seeing that one at auction or Auto Trader. And it is a value at that price.

Or you might look at this one

'93 Gold 500E For Sale
1993 500E for sale. This is formally Carl Genberg’s car so most of you know the history. I purchased it in May 2005. I hate to sell, but I just don’t get the time to drive the car. This car has all of the BergWerks modifications, including Nitrous. Mileage 163,388. I only put 7,300 miles on the car since May of ‘05. First $20,000 takes this car. I'm located in Long Beach, CA

'93 Gold 500E For Sale - 500Ecstasy.com | everybody get your ROLL on

Or this 43,000 mile example for $24,900 from a month ago.
Cars For Sale: Car Details - AutoTrader.com

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.

Last edited by mcbear; 08-30-2007 at 10:53 AM.
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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoin
"you are fighting an uphill battle", you must be joking!!! [/url]
I have been in the collector car business for over 25 years and have dealt with every auction market in the country from back yard t Barrett Jackson for my clients. My dealership in Florida deals with nothing but collector and special interest cars.

Your understanding of KBB and Edmunds is based on a consumer driven market, not the collector and special interest market.

Most of the 500Es, much like the AMG 560SECs or older 6.3 and 6.9 cars are never on the open market so it is not surprising that you have not seen any cars that McBear discusses when he talked about the sub 100000 mile cars at $20-30000. You have to know where to look. And if you are mainly looking at Auto Trader and eBay, you don't know where to look.
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 08-30-2007, 11:45 AM
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They best ones change hands amonst the real enthusiasts

^^^^ It is very easy to believe the very best examples of these come up for sale and change hands amongst those who "know" about them.

For example:

I've met Carl Genberg (when he had his '90 Renntech SEC back in the Bergwerks days. I almost bought his SEC when it was for sale. He's a great guy. I'd get anything he'd owned. His cars are pristine, and the modifications they have REALLY are good ones.

It is likely true with ANY collectible car - if you want one, get it from another enthusiast. It is not impossible to find where these groups of people are, and hang out.

The best way to buy one. Some enthusiasts comb the want ads and internet and ebay and other sources daily, checking what is for sale.

If and when - I ever sought out an E500/500E - I would surely contact McBear for advice.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<
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