Ethanol - good or bad - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-03-2007, 06:06 AM
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For those who are interested, MB has sold cars fo Brazil for many years. In Brazil, basically all vehicles use alcohol as fuel. There is an official MB adaption kit for the cars in the Brazilian market.

BTW, the australian report has been discussed quite frequently on the swedish E85 boards as well. There are certainly several official reports pointing in different directions...
/Alexander

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-03-2007, 06:13 AM
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Can the kit be used with older Mercedes-Benzes, like mine for instance? :-)

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-03-2007, 08:49 AM
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Let's just set the record straight on a few things. Yes, E10 does mean less mpg from your engine. And yes flex fuel cars get worse MPG when running on E85 than on gasoline. Your engine makes less horsepower when running on E10. E10does damage seals and hoses. Supposedly new cars now have hoses and seals that aren't damaged by ethanol, but an industry insider told me GM and Ford were bullied into approving E10 and GM almost dropped their 5 year 100k mile warranty because of this.
Finally, E10 does not reduce all emissions. Toyota tested and found that while E10 did make less CO than MTBE based gas, in some cars it made more HC and in all cars it raised NOx. Furthermore, with E10 there are much greater evaporative emissions. What's more is that ethanol cannot be shipped by pipeline since it is hydroscopic. Instead it has to be shipped by trucks...trucks which use diesel. WE have also increased farming of corn with the increased interest in E10...and farm vehicles use diesel. So, now we have much greater consumption of diesel chipping away at the amount of oil we are "saving" by using E10.

You know what's "good" about E10? It made some very powerful agribusinesses richer.

Oh, and let's not forget, you and I are paying for this ethanol even if we never buy a gallon of gas. Ethanol is subsidized fairly heavily (without the subsidies ethanol is more expensive than gasoline). Not to mention, when we do buy gas we pay a gas tax per gallon, but the companies only pay the government for the portion of those gallons which were not ethanol. The government also mandated that a certain number of billions of gallons of ethanol are sold each year (the number it raises each year too).
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 02:59 AM
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marlinspike, you do not set record straight by being wrong!
-As I said before, adding 5 or 10% ethanol will NOT reduce fuel efficiency! If you do not take my word for it, do some detective work yourself.
-Running an engine with increased fuel delivery capacity, will give you the same or more power as gasoline. A supercharged or turbocharged engine will have increased power potential, since E85 has 104 or higher octane.
-A fully optimized E85 engine has higher compression ratio (CR), which increases fuel efficency. That engine will absolutely have MORE power than the gasoline one, and LOWER fuel comsumption than a normal CR-one run on E85.
-Material compatibility seems to be a problem mostly invented by people NOT using E85... I have followed the debate in the E85 forums here, and almost no problems are reported. There are people who have tun their converted gasoline cars on alcohol for ten yers or more. I also ran my 15 year old MB 190 at 25-40% E85 mixture for 1,5 years. Not one problem.

Those were your mistakes on a technical level. I did not bring politics into the debate (you did), but I will still comment on what you said:
-E85 is green, renewable, does not deplete. Petroleum can (and probably will quickly) be used up = no more fuel. Search "peak oil".
-E85 reduces green house effect. That is THE most important emission issue currently. Do your homework.
-Why pump E85 in pipelines or drive it long distance in trucks? Don't you understand that it can (and ought to) be produced locally? Petroleum, on the other hand, has to go around the globe. And what do YOU think propells the freight boats and the trucks today?
-A small note on the subsidizing issue: Is it not good that american dollars go to american farmers instead of going to war lords in Far East, Nigeria or Kazakstan? I'd say american farmers seldom threaten us with terrorism and atomic bombs.

And by the way; Diesel engines can also be run on alcohol. Do your homework.

/Alexander from Sweden

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 07:52 AM
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Dude...do you see where I said E10? And I have done detective work and have personal experience E10 DOES reduce fuel efficiency. The only thing I said about E85 was that flex fuel vehicles get lower mpg on E85 than on gasoline. That's a very specific statement. You have debunked me by disproving a bunch of stuff I didn't say.

And running a car on ethanol for 1.5 years and not having a problem means exactly nothing. Try 10-15 years. Or just try science.

When talking about pollutants AGAIN I SAID E10. BTW, on the whole won't get used up thing, if every car were on E85 we wouldn't be able to support it.

What you choose to say is the most important emissions issue is just your choice. I for one think the factual link between NOx emissions and acid rain is more important than the theorized and still debated link between so-called greenhouse gasses and global warming trends.

I won't get into a debate about subsidies with a Swede. Who says the money has to go to either war lords or farmers? How about neither?

Produce ethanol locally? So...when are you planning on opening the first large corn farm in Maine?

Dieseil engines can be made to run on alcohol yes, but the trucks shipping the stuff currently do not.

Last edited by marlinspike; 01-04-2007 at 07:56 AM.
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Good Debate

This is an interesting debate between marlinspike and Swedish Benz.

I try to be environmentally conscious myself, and certainly agree that there is cause for concern about global warming. To paraphrase marlinspike "the jury is still out" on what the primary causes are of that. I think there have been strong cases to support NOx gasses and/or the COx ones.

Regardless of the gasses involved though, I think that we (as an entire world) had better stop converting our dwindling plantlife to concrete before it is too late.

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 09:06 AM
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The hard part is it's easier and in a way safer to destroy stuff than add stuff. For instance, if COx gases are the problem, we would be wise to plant ferns everywhere, but who knows what will happen to other plant life, and then in turn animal life, if we go around putting ferns in large numbers everywhere? If we destroy a plot of land we've destroyed it, but at least we knew we'd be destroying it before we did it.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 09:25 AM
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Ethanol is bad bad bad!!!!!!!!! Just ask anyone with a boat It eats fuel tanks rubber parts and anything else that can be disolved by it. I have a ford truck that it ate the plastic gas tank then siezed the intake valves with a gooy resin like substance. If you get any moisture or water in your gas tank the ethanol comes out of solution to absorbe the water(like the old dry gas) then the gas wont burn or if it does the detonation margins are so low that your pistons turn into molten slag.
Plus the fuel milage is 27% less with 15% ethanol wich means it has a negative BTU value when combined with gasoline.
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Good point there marlinspike. Philosophically, nature is a somewhat delicate balance between give and take. When we consider how many "noxious substances" man has created, and then released into the earth, air, and water, it amazes me that there is life on earth at all in 2007.

I'm not really a tree hugger, but it's about time someone devised a way to counteract all pollution or even our generation will live to see the Earth in much worse shape than it is already.

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2007, 09:40 AM
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I agree w/ rsmith: Bad! Bad! Bad! But to add a little more depth to this discussion check these search results: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/sear...earchid=645113

There is even a Sticky on the subject at http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123...hlight=Ethanol called The Official Alternative Fuels Thread...

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