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post #21 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 12:13 AM
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Actually, that was a bad comparison with Ferrari. What I meant was Mercedes was just like Ferrari, in the way how Mercedes made exclusive automotibles low in production numbers. Not in the way that both make well-engineered vehicles. Ferrari makes amazing performance vehicles, but they're Italian, which means they will catch fire while you're driving them (a sarcastic exaggeration).
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post #22 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
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I don't think it has to do with where the cars are manufactured i.e. "outsourcing". You gave the example of the M class having horrible quality because its made in a factory located in Alabama. This doesn't seem to make sense because Toyota and Honda both produce most of their USA market cars in the USA, including critical components such as the engine. But I do agree with you about the cost cutting measures.
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post #23 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 12:20 AM
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Question Computer issues

Originally Posted by amit1
Where an onboard computer or related sensors will last an average of x in a mercedes, it will last an average of 10x in a toyota/lexus for example.
Now THIS is a point I've seen made elsewhere on these various forums.

Some people feel that the "germans" cannot make reliable micro-processors, and/or stubbornly refuse to use those made by someone other than german manufacturers. Who makes these for Daimler anyway?

I really don't have the education to debate this, but I think this is an interesting, and plausible, explanation for at least SOME of the electrical failures.

Furthermore, I saw a study where Daimler was testing the 320 CDI autos. They ran them CONTINUALLY for 100,000 miles (approx 30 days), stopping only long enough for the recommended oil changes and service intervals. They looked pretty impressive, but I don't think this was a good test of "real-life" conditions.

It is commonly thought that it is the "on and off" that produces the most stress when it come to electrical apparati. I think that the average diesel engine will run practically forever.

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post #24 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 03:47 AM
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people talk about mercedes cutting costs but yet lexus has cut down on the amount of wood/alluminum trim by 30% ( look at the passenger side dash, and the rear cabin).
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post #25 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by amit1
asianml, what are you basing your statement on when you say mercedes has "wayyyyy" superior engineering? How can this be true when toyota/lexus cars are much more reliable mechancially and electronically than their merdeces counterparts. I don't think there is any way you can back this statement up. On the safety note I do agree that mercedes makes a vehicle that can do well in accidents, but so do several other manufacturers.

NZ Benz, what you said about other companies copying and improving on mercedes derived technology is interesting. I suppose this could explain it but can you point to something specifically that was copied by japanese auto makers from mercedes (other than safety related tech like airbags etc.)? What I doubt in your argument is the extent of copying. I seriously doubt that if you took apart an LS and an S-class that you would find copies of driveline components for example.
Your right I don't have an exact example and I doubt that they "copy" due to patent and copyright issues. But I have spoken to people who I would consider to be in the know and it is widely agreed that they do simplify ALOT of technology that is in European cars even the styling look at the LS side profile it looks alot like the S class throughout it's life.
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post #26 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 06:12 AM
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This thread or the ones like this always bewilders me ..... We have three MBZ automobiles now, one Suburu and two Saturns in our family of five ...... over the past 30 years I have had a total of 8 different MBZ automobiles ( five MBZ's purchased brand new ) and 27 different other vehicles from a collection of classic Cadilliac convertibles to a Suburban ( purchased new -- drove for 16 years and died at 120,000 miles ) to a Hummer ( purchased new). Regarding driving experience, the Hummer taken off road was the most fun to drive, but for quality of handling, nothing compares to the MBZ automobiles that I have had. In fact, my wife and I drove a 1971 280SEL 6.5 litre six close to 700,000 miles with only two valve jobs and very little else -- the car ran perfectly as long as we had it --- it was always serviced at the dealer -- MBZ wanted this car & bought the car back from us in 1987 --- actually they traded a brand new MBZ 300TD Wagon for our car and $10,000.00 and then sent our 280SEL back to the factory for some reason; the car looked perfect and ran excellent --- great compression an oil pressure. We changed the oil every 4500 miles since we got it ...... we purchased the car in 1973 with 134,000 miles on it from a businessman who drove the car between San Francisco and Los Angeles continuously between his two locations ..... we also drove a 1977 300D over 300,000 miles ..... talking about quality ? The two Saturns made by Nummi ( ? - spelling -- isn't this company Toyota and GM ? ) ---- just "garbage" automobiles as far as finish and quality; our 1998 has about 50,000 miles and our 1999 has about 40,000 miles and we are now having some expensive repairs --- however, they are safe with all kinds of air-bags. The Suburu, a 2003 Impreza Outback ---- well for quality, my middle Daughter drives this car and she got it brand new. It has 20,000 miles plus and seems to be okay except that it has been in the shop four times for a CD player breakdown. Suburu uses Sony CD players and they seem to be total "crap" ---- and the arguments to get it fixed each time that it breaks is a "nightmare" ---- regarding service for the Suburu ? This is what is amazing, I find that the service cost for the Suburu ( maintenence costs ) is more than our 2000 E320 Wagon ( purchased new ) .....

Oh, well .... everyone has a "valid" opinion.

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post #27 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 07:20 AM
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As I recall though, in a review of the W221 one reviewer said it was quieter then the Lexus LS. I have been in both the W220 and the W221 and I can say that from the looks of it the W221 is made extremely well and it is a very nice car.

Perhaps I need to explain my definition of build quality. I mean the materials and construction, this does not mean that the facotry workers are not doing their job it means the materials they are given are subpar.

I don't think that recalls can be an accurate measure of ones quality. Recalls to me mean that the company has taken responsibility for problems that vehicles had.

Mercedes admits to fucking up and I believe they are making good progress in getting back the former quality. This of course will take time and a lot of management reconstruction.
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post #28 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 08:23 AM
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And because they tried to get higher profit margins, they used shittier materials. It's all because of those bozo's, or rather that "one" bozo.

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post #29 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:15 AM
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amit1, you seem to be young enough to still know everything. What car are you driving?
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post #30 of 93 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by chinny4290

Actually, that was a bad comparison with Ferrari. What I meant was Mercedes was just like Ferrari, in the way how Mercedes made exclusive automotibles low in production numbers. Not in the way that both make well-engineered vehicles. Ferrari makes amazing performance vehicles, but they're Italian, which means they will catch fire while you're driving them (a sarcastic exaggeration).
Hey...... Sure my FIAT X1/9 pumped gass from the broken fuel tube onto the hot engine, but it NEVER CAUGHT FIRE!

I Love Italian cars. I lost out on my first Ferrari since it was the other half's chance to get a car and we got the S500 instead. Then, 1994, it stickered for $98,600, although I payed considerably less.

My LS430 isn't built any better then my Mercedes is. I have had electrical gremlins in it, it constantly sets it's parking break by itself. It almost crushed my head one time I got out of it and the seat freaked out and started raising up. However, because Lexus makes it so painless, by driving out 42 miles to my house with a new loaner, it is like the problems don't bother me.

You guys are missing the real point. The Engineers lost control of the company to the beancounters in the late 80's. That is the REAL reason. No longer are engineers saying "Okay, design that door handle to hold 200 lbs. in case they're hanging from it on a cliff." No longer is a Benz glove box better engineered then an entire Koren car.

Oh, one more thing. It was my Toyota Corolla Wagon that caught fire while driving, with 46,000 miles on it. I loaned it to my Dad and he bailed out at 30 MPH on the highway shoulder before the doors welded shut.


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Last edited by RacerCub68; 08-02-2006 at 01:22 PM.
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