Saw this on another BBS last night and I thought it might be of interest here.
I've discussed this at length before with my German colleagues and the general concensus there was the same thing. Japan builds a better/higher quality car for the price paid.
However, my personal taste in motor vehicles leans heavily toward being off-road capable. There I believe the Europeans have no equal. The G and the Unimog are prime examples. While a Land Cruiser may be a good vehicle, let's face it, it's not a G.
I wonder what the highest ranking US Manufacturer was on the German survey? Wanna bet it was Chrysler at probably the 22nd spot? [:D]
BTW, my wife is driving her second Lexus RX300. What a great little vehicle for the price. Drive it, service it and then drive it some more. Now built in Canada as well as Japan and the quality is as good as ever.
This is not meant to be a "bashing" thread. I'm simply looking for a good dialogue.
I used to be a big fan of the Japanese brands, and I guess I still am to some extent. I sold my mother on a Honda Accord back in 1985, they have owned at least one Honda product ever since. They recently ordered a Volvo, which I warned her would NOT be as trouble free as she was accustomed to. My father, after two decades of managing domestic car dealerships now drives a Camry and loves it. The guys that built my Buick up both drive Hondas daily. They told me it was like a refrigerator, an appliance that runs everyday without complaint, not very exciting but reliable.
BTW,I love this subject, thanks Sean[:D]
The flip side is that European cars, and German ones more specifically, drive better IMO. Speeds in Japan rarely exceed 55 mph. For the most part the cars they produce reflect that in their braking, steering and suspension systems. Germany by contrast allows 150mph+ if the traffic is light. The entire philosophy of designing cars is different. Now that I can afford the Germans higher price of entry, I can't think of anything I'd rather drive. Nothing I have driven has the heft and solidity of the G. Nothing I have found offers its combination of competant on road manners with extreme off-road capabilities. Sure it can be beat in one or the other but nothing else does both. Nothing runs hard like a Porsche either. I have been to lots of track events with Vipers, Vettes, RX-7's, Supras etc. Nothing holds up to that extreme running like a Porsche. They are so well designed that I have seen them survive horriffic high speed crashes that lesser cars have not. Then I turn on the AC and drive it home. The price to be paid for this is more maintainence. It is gernerally more expensive as well. Better quality parts naturally cost more money. More complex designs require more labor.
So there is undoubtably a trade off. I would never say my BMW is a higher quality car than a Lexus but on a winding moutain road, I'll pay the frieght for the bimmer. You can either tell the difference, or you can't.
I think MB made a mistake a while back. Instead of engineers having free reign, costs be damned, they are now trying to be price competitive. There is a lot of low cost parts sharing amongst models now. That was not the case 15 years ago. MB's quality has suffered, their reputation has suffered, and worst of all they STILL are not price competitive. Hopefully they have realized that there are people willing to pay the premium, IF the car is premium. If not, they are doomed to follow the current downslide.
It is a matter of priorities, like most things. If driving is a big deal, there is only one place to look, Germany. If reliable transportation is #1, go Japanese. If cost is #1, go American. If lust is #1 look to Italy[:p]
I think MB made a mistake a while back. Instead of engineers having free reign, costs be damned, they are now trying to be price competitive. There is a lot of low cost parts sharing amongst models now. That was not the case 15 years ago. MB's quality has suffered, their reputation has suffered, and worst of all they STILL are not price competitive. Hopefully they have realized that there are people willing to pay the premium, IF the car is premium. If not, they are doomed to follow the current downslide.
Agreed, but I see the change. Just talked to DC on that issue and their Engineers told me the last models were designed like : "7 new features in every new Merceds model". Mercedes figured out, that reliability and quality left behind this "hunting for new Technology". What does a radar distance warning bring you, if it is always in malfunction ? or causes breakdown in CAN controlled Modules and your car stops.
Too much electronic that will not work properly togehter. Too many Suppliers, supplying different Modules that have to talk to each other. How many times you have discovered the "disco" effect in your rear view Mirror? Short of development...Testing on the road with the customer. That has to stop. BMW did change Management and broke the clear split between Electric and Electronic. When DC will do this ?
Hopefully Mercedes is reading these signs very carefully.
Anyway, the G is what it is. A solid off-road vehicle with chararcter.
You know, I like a lot of new cars. This year especially I love all the new choices. The GT-40, a Hemi powered wagon, the new Corvette... and the concepts like the Jeep Rescue and even the H3 pick-up. But I never buy any of them.
To me, a vehicle needs to be old to be worth buying. Anything really cool today, probably won't be cool 5 years from now. Like the Mini, or the new Beatle. You could almost stop trafic with one when they came out, and I stared like the rest. Now they are just more trafic.
A old car that is still great after the years have gone by, will always be great. Almost every 70's Ferrari is still an object of lust, a Shelby Mustang is still just a hoot to own, and a Gwagen is still a vehicle that you can pull into a gas station and start a conversation with.
Yeah, I chopped mine up and threw different parts in it, but you wouldn't pass it on the road and not know what it is, and I love that truck. It's a whole lot nicer to use every day with an extra 200hp and when you tear stuff up like I do it's nice to have it cheap, available, and usually upgradable.
I love the German cars. While I haven't owned a new one I look at things like the Audi S4 and hope it's still something you want to own in 10 years. I would love an 80's M4 or an older AMG, but that's just me. I want a car that I won't be ready to trade in a couple years. A car needs to be worth developing a relationship with, and like everything else you want a relationship that is exciting and lasting.
You know you are sad when you jump at a chance to run to "babies-r-us" so you can drive the truck. But hey, that's what a vehicle has to do for me.
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Chuck Henry
http://www.gelaendekraft.com
I see BMW in a moras of its own. I have owned 5 BMW's and unless they get rid of these Bangle designed cars, I will never buy another. BMW's i-drive is almost universally hated from what I read, yet it is in the new 5 and 6 series cars. The only decent machine left in the fleet is the 3 series. My next German auto is coming from Porsche, they are about the only one that seems to have any sense left[:0]
A G-wagen is probably the only non-japanese car i'll ever own... except maybe my dad's '69 TR6. The g-wagen is likely to be the only vehicle in my lifetime that i find so unique and interesting that i don't care if it's reliable.
Handling and driving many japanese cars, i'm on board with you... alot of them feel very poor, for the reasons you sight, but (cosmetics aside) not all japanese cars drive poorly. As well, one additional benefit to japanese cars is their generally superior ergonomics. Although if your too tall or wide, you just might not fit, but generally they have the best ergonomics too.
I actually like the ergonomics in my 2000 G, but though i like them doesn't mean they are good. Quaint, and funky are the words i like to describe them, for example, watching someone in the back seat try to figure out how to get out of the car is somewhere between hilarious and embarrassing.
Let me say that i am by no means a blind japanese car lover, because i've recently purchase and then sold a '90 honda accord which (hopefully) will go down as biggest piece of junk i've ever sunk money into. It might have been a good car, but for whatever abuse it had previously suffered without an actual accident, it was ruined.
P.S. As sad side note for Merceds, on my last trip to the benz dealership to buy fog-light bulbs, there was guy who was so pissed he was yelling about their unrelieable/junk cars all the way off the lot. :()
I do not mind how they drive in general, just that they do not generally excell in any area. They are just overall good.
One thing I do not like is front wheel drive. Great for cheap econo cars but the wrong design for any type of decent vehicle dynamic. The market in general seems to be acknowledging that the Germans were right all along and are coming back with more rear drive models.
Isn't that mainly for traction. I thought that's why FWD was so popular. I know I really prefer it in the snow.
I think that the traction is no more than a side benefit the automakers played up. If you think about it, the packaging is better and the overall design is simplified. There is no driveshaft or center hump to be built into the body. The beam axles on the rear of many front drivers are very cheap and simple.
The problem with it is that, you have four tires with two doing all of the work. Something Harald talks about is the fifnite amount of traction each tire has. In a rwd platform steering is done by one pair, and acceleration by another. FWD makes the fronts do all of the work in addition to carrying 65%+ of the wieght.
I personally would take rwd on snows any day over fwd. I used to prefer my BMW 318i in up to a foot of snow over even my old Suburban. The car was well balanced and very predictible.
FWD is easy because the default mode is nice safe understeer. Great platform for the masses in the US that have never been taught proper car control.[:0]
I suppose it has merits for stability in snow and good traction for acceleration in snow. Otherwise I just can't get used to it anymore. Feeling engine torque through the steering wheel is very unnatural to me, and understeer is no fun.
That the don't excel anywhere in particular?... but the do, it's reliability... it's just barely tangible.
No doubt rear wheel drive cars are more fun, but this also bring to mind that it's much the execution that makes a difference... my boss loves and thoroughly drives his BMW M3... never really plans to sell it. At any rate, he's recently driven a supercharged Mini-cooper S with equal length front drive shafts which has BMW rear suspension, and he really thought it was also a blast to drive. He's thinking about buying one. I guess it gets back to your point about intended use. The mini, is probably the only front wheel drive car on the road today which was ground-up intentionally designed with the european spirit of driving prowess so, for example, it has equal length drive shafts. ...and the equivalent flip side that so many FWD cars are so underpowered that you can't feel the torque steer.
Yeah, it's too bad there aren't more RWD japanese cars. I'm looking for a fun commuter that get +25mpg and about the only simple, cheap, option is the Miata.
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